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Dear media: Let me tell you about firewalls

by: Eric B.

Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 15:46:25 PM EST


I suppose that over the next few days, we're going to hear an increasing number of people tell us about how Michigan went for McCain back in 2000, and how it makes him some kind of presumptive favorite here.  Let's review a few things, and then come back to the present.

First, back in 2000, Michigan was declared as the firewall for George Bush.  It was a state Bush had to win, because everyone had gone all squirrelly over McCain's win in New Hampshire.  Who declared Michigan to be Bush's firewall?  None other than Beal City's own John Mathias Engler.

Most of us remember that, and remember what came next.  The glee with which the state's Democrats crossed party lines and helped to embarrass both Engler and Bush by handing the state to McCain.  McCain won Michigan because he managed to capture the key voting bloc of mischief makers, people motivated by a desire to see Engler humiliated on the national stage.

This year, he comes to Michigan without that advantage.  The mischief makers have thrown their weight behind an even wackier candidate ... Ron Paul.  So, when you read things like:

McCain campaigned in Michigan, hoping to reprise his win there in 2000 just as he did in New Hampshire. staggering one-time poll leader Mitt Romney.

...you're reading something based on numbers and not actual understanding.

McCain could very repeat a victory here, despite the loss of the mischief bloc (which is itself highly disorganized), because his ground organization here is said to be much better this time around than it was last time.  In fact, word on the street is that the GOP leadership, much of which has thrown its weight behind Native Son Romney, was a-scared of a convention, because the local party posts have been taken over by McCain partisans.

We'll see ... but let's keep in mind that McCain didn't actually win Michigan last time around; he was handed the state's delegates courtesy voters who were motivated more by a hatred of John Engler and a desire to embarrass him than out of genuine support for John McCain.

Eric B. :: Dear media: Let me tell you about firewalls
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McCain (4.00 / 2)
You hit the nail right on the head.  I was one of those mischief makers and I was never so happy as the night I learned King John had been thwarted.  But you are also right about the quandry of what to do this time around since my choice is not on the ballot :<

Agreed (4.00 / 2)
And what do i do in one week?

Where can my one little vote have the most effect?

I don't have a field to choose from and my candidate bypassed MI for what ever reason - some legit some shit.

I used to never vote. Then I saw the light in 1990. Now this crap comes along. So, do I cause mischief, do I vote party, do I vote my heart, do I vote my brain?????

One week away and I still really don't know what I will do in the booth. Or, will I go in the booth and essentially grant my info to the Democratic party.

This whole process really sucks.


Ride with me into the certain doom of oblivion... (0.00 / 0)
Vote Ron Paul.

Among the Trees

[ Parent ]
Ummmm... (0.00 / 0)
You do know that a vote for Ron Paul under these circumstances isn't an endorsement of the guy's politics, don't you?

Among the Trees

[ Parent ]
Still... (0.00 / 0)
     The distastefulness issue, etc.    :D

[ Parent ]
a thought on racism (0.00 / 0)
It's been common lately to see people point out a disturbing side to ron paul. It is is probably true that he has a racist slant.

But doesn't most everything in america.

Back in the days of vietnam it was called a racist war. It it was then surely Iraq is also a racist war. The media has kept a tighter lid on iraq so you don't see those kind of charges in the media. How do you quantify the racism of killing some half a million dark skinned arabs? Does that mean all those who voted for the war in congress - a majority of the democratic presidential candidates - are racists? It might. Does that make the wars congress supporters - like Nancy pelosi and Carl levin racist - it might.

Did Hillary and Bill clinton play the race card against Obama just this week? They might have. Was bill clinton's term peppered with racist streaks. You have sister soulja, the death penalty act, drug sentences that hit minorities hard, ending welfare etc. ? Yet I don't see anyone warning hillary clinton supporters not to vote for her because she supports a racist war or her husbands term was colored with racism.

As far as Ron Paul is concerned, will I play one racist against the other to register my disgust for the iraq war? I might. Considering that many people call america's quest for resorces abroad - mostly from countries with dark skinned people - racist, wouldn't Paul's foriegn policy goals of disengaging from all around the world end much racism in america's foriegn policy?

Racism is here, there and everywhere. nobody's candidate can claim perfection. It's good to make sure that everyone knows a candidates history and it's good to shine a light on Paul. But it's borders on being disengenuous to suggest that one persons vote has any more racial implications than any other.



[ Parent ]
What's most important for you (4.00 / 5)
It's pretty simple, what's your motivation?

If you're comfortable with the idea of Hillary becoming President, you vote for her.  You should also call your county party and find out when your district convention is so you can help us elect Clinton supporters to the Uncommitted delegate spots.

If you want to embarrass Hillary, Granholm, Levin and Stabenow, you vote Uncommitted keeping in mind that some or all of the Uncommitted delegates will end up supporting Clinton anyway.

If you want to vote your liberal principles and voice a protest vote against Clinton, you vote for Kucinich.  Enough Kucinich votes will likely results in Obama delegates.

If you want to mess with the primary system and the Republican Party, you vote for Ron Paul.

If you want to help force Romney out of the race and mess with the primary system, you vote for McCain.


I would hope (4.00 / 1)
that those who run as Uncommitted delegates are NOT simply supporters of Senator Clinton who are misrepresenting themselves.  I'd like to think such dishonest practices were limited to Rethug intra-party stuff.

Am I silly for thinking/hoping Dems play more honest with each other?

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.


[ Parent ]
Uncommitted...... (4.00 / 2)
should be uncommitted. But they won't stay uncommitted forever.(Just saw you on TV Julie, good job. How did you make that phone ring?)

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[ Parent ]
Oh dear god! (4.00 / 2)
I suffered from sleep deprivation today, as was clearly evident in that clip on TV.  Ah well, so it goes.

It was great timing with that call, wasn't it?  Man I get lots of 'em every day.  So many wanting to know how to vote for someone other than Clinton.

Busy times.  I wish it were those who got us into this mess who had to field the calls. but of course that is for the little people to deal with, isn't it?  ;-)

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.


[ Parent ]
Uncommitted (4.00 / 1)
Clinton supporters have just as much right to seek election to the Uncommitted delegate positons as supporters of any other candidate.  Uncommitted doesn't soley mean "alternative for supporters of candidates who abandoned Michigan".


[ Parent ]
is Clinton campaigning in Michigan? (4.00 / 1)
She may have stayed in the process but is she here asking for my vote? No. Why is she a cabdidate who stuck with Michigan?

[ Parent ]
Standing Up for Michigan (0.00 / 0)
Hillary Clinton joined all the other Democratic candidates except Gravel and Kucinich in signing a pledge to not campaign in states which scheduled primaries before a date permitted by the DNC -which Michigan chose to do after she signed the pledge.  Hillary will honor that pledge.  However, nothing in the pledge requires candidates to take active steps to remove their names from Michigan's ballot.  Several of the other campaigns have used the pledge as an excuse to remove their names from the Michigan ballot in order to concentrate their money and other resources in IA, NH, NV, and FL despite personal appeals by Governor Granholm to all the candidates to remain on the ballot and confirmation by the chair of the New Hampshire Democratic Party that the pledge does not require candidates to remove their name from Michigan's ballot.  Clinton and Dodd agreed to leave their names on the Michigan ballot.  Partially as a result of Clinton not withdrawing from Michigan, Granholm endorsed Clinton.  The text explaining her endorsement can be found at:  http://www.jennifergranholm.co...

In addition to Granholm, Hillary Clinton has been endorsed by Senator Stabenow, Lt. Governor Cherry, Senate Democratic Leader Mark Schauer and Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero.  While Clinton will not be in Michigan to directly ask you for her vote, you can call or e-mail any of those leading Michigan Democrats to ask them why you should vote for Hillary Clinton.  I am very pleased to ask you, on behalf of Senator Clinton, to support her on the Michigan ballot next Tuesday.  Hillary Clinton has made it possible for you to cast a vote for her and frankly, that's among the best ways any candidate can ask for your vote.


[ Parent ]
I guess I misunderstood "Uncommitted" (4.00 / 2)
In this case, our primary ballot, it seems ot me to be the eqivalent of "none of the above".

Why on earth would anyone vote or claim to be "uncommitted" when their candidate was clearly on the ballot?  

Not being deliberately obtuse, just questioning what seems to be a dishonest manuever.

Julie--sometimes just too sweet and simple I guess

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.


[ Parent ]
Uncommitted (0.00 / 0)
Uncommitted does not mean, "none of the above" although I can understand people making that mistake due to campaign encouraging Edwards and Obama supporters to vote Uncommitted.  The MDP is making that effort because it wants participation in the Democratic Primary to be as high as possible and committed supporters of Edwards and Obama have no other option in the Dem Primary other than chosing another candidate.

Uncommitted simply means not pledged to any candidate but that doesn't mean an uncommitted delegate has to favor all the candidates equally.  Phil, for example, very strongly favors Edwards yet Phil has told us he will be running for an uncommitted delegate position.  If Phil wins a delegate position, we can count on his voting for Edwards even though he does not have to pledge to do so.  The Uncommitted delegate positions don't belong to people favoring only certain candidates.

People who support Clinton should vote for her on January 15 but this does not take away their right to become Uncommitted delegates.  And there are a lot of undecided voters now who may begin to lean toward Clinton at some point before the convention.  They also would be ideal Uncommitted delegates.

I hope this helps you Julie.


[ Parent ]
Ok, well thank you for the explanation (4.00 / 1)
If I had a candidate on the ballot I would stand and support them loud and proud.  I would be openly committed to them and, if interested in running as a delegate, would definitely run as a committed delegate for that candidate.

I gather it's really a matter of what one percieves "uncommitted" to mean.  Though, doesn't the vote breakdown determine delegate selection?  Like if Sen. Clinton got a certain percentage of the vote she'd be entitled to so many delegates, right?  Wouldn't a delegate who intended to support her and ran as an "uncommitted" be "illegally" tilting the delegation?  I was under the impression delegates were to represent the actual vote.  Obviously no one who is a Clinton supporter is going to vote for Uncommitted on Tuesday, right?

In other news I had my first phone inquiry re:  the primary mess from a Clinton supporter just a few minutes ago.  She had apparently heard many things and wasn't sure how to vote.  I told her if her candidate wasn't on the ballot to vote "uncommitted" as opposed to not voting.  She said she was a Clinton supporter so I told her by all means vote for Senator Clinton, assured her her vote would count.  She decided she would then be voting for sure and I was glad to hear it.  I genuinely was, voting is empowering, I hate to hear of anyone being so discouraged they don't vote.

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.


[ Parent ]
Answers for Julie (0.00 / 0)
"Like if Sen. Clinton got a certain percentage of the vote she'd be entitled to so many delegates, right?"

Correct.  Only Clinton, Kucinich, Dodd, and Gravel have the possibility of winning pledged delegates as a result of the primary.  If you take your name off the ballot, you forgo the possiblity of winning pledged delegates.  Obama and Edwards lost a reckless gamble the MDP would give in and go to something like a February 9 Caucus.

"Wouldn't a delegate who intended to support her and ran as an "uncommitted" be "illegally" tilting the delegation?"

No.  Not any more so than a delegate who intended to support any other candidate such as Obama or Edwards.  Keep in mind that the delegate selection isn't happening on January 15.  There very likely will be many people who vote Uncommitted next Tuesday who will decide on Hillary Clinton in the weeks following the primary but before the delegate selections.

I will not personally campaign to take a delegate position representing either Clinton or Uncommitted for the 1st District although I will be voting for several "Biden supporters" who may favor Clinton although I do not know how they will vote on their private ballot next Tuesday.


[ Parent ]
Uncommitted part IV (4.00 / 3)
You two are making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Uncommitted is just that, uncommitted to any candidate and free to vote for any candidate(including Clinton) at convention.

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[ Parent ]
Thanks Mark (4.00 / 1)
I've tried simple before only to have her accuse me of not answering her questions.  So now I go for thorough.  Your once sentence answer is exactly correct.

[ Parent ]
None of this matters (4.00 / 1)
as the people who voted for uncommitted get to pick the uncommitted delegates.

Only assholes would attempt to piss off a significant portion of the Democratic activists by playing games with the delegates.

Also, none of this matter anyway because:

Drum roll please....

Whomever wins the nomination will be whom the delegates vote for, no matter who they are committed to.


[ Parent ]
This is true (4.00 / 2)
No matter who runs for what under what guise, once it's time for the national convention, all will line up and vote for whoever the alreaedy determined nominee is.

I need to quit wasting my time on this pointless discussion, I've got a US House race to win and I'm grateful to have a political project where we little people actually have some say/control in the matter.

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.


[ Parent ]
huchabee's michigan tv ad (4.00 / 1)
I think this ad is a homerun!

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crun...

I got the link to this site from someone here. I forgot who but a belated thanks to whoever it was. I've been following this site for a week now. it's a sensible - and I think - great site.


WOW (0.00 / 0)
this is a great ad - sweet, simple, friendly.  Anyone who sees it (without any Huckabackground information) will definitely fall in love with him.  

Compared to this, Mitt's commercials look more like a pitch to a venture cap group.

Has anyone seen a McCain ad yet?


[ Parent ]
Romeny Pulls Advertising (4.00 / 1)
The Romney campaign has pulled its advertising in South Carolina and Florida to focus all its efforts on winning Michigan next Tuesday.  A McCain victory over Romney in Michigan would mean the end of Romney's campaign.

Interesting (4.00 / 1)
Good diary Eric. I'm not going to mention specifics cuz everyone here pretty much knows where I stand. I will encourage everyone here though to read tomorrow's Detroit News. They are working on a little story that is bound to add light to the debate on who to vote for -- and why.

Personally, I refuse to vote for someone who doesn't think enough of me to put their name on the ballot.

(Ok, I know I just did what I said I wasn't gonna do, but.....)

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.


But why did they ask to have their names removed? (4.00 / 1)
Were they following DNC instructions?

Do they wish to avoid this State? Edwards, I doubt that he wants to skip this State. Obama, likely that he won't miss this State after what he said to the auto industry.

You say you would not vote for those who won't put their name on a ballot but will you vote for someone who will not come to this State and ask for your vote?

I really will work to get any Democrat that the party selects into the White House. I have no problem with any of the candidates.

I see some are still on the ballot but I do not see any of them asking me for my vote.


[ Parent ]
It was a setup (4.00 / 3)
coordinated plan to make Clinton look bad to the Iowans and New Hampshirians.

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[ Parent ]
There's a difference (4.00 / 2)
There is a difference from agreeing to not campaign here (which is bad enough) and taking your name off of the ballot thus REFUSING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO VOTE.

This is the real problem that I have with the candidates. It's one thing not to spend money here, it's another to deny me the ability to vote for the candidate of my choice.

The DNC pledge was for them not to campaign here. Their removing their names from the ballot was an extra, VOLUNTARY, (and in my opinion) inexcusable step.

If my candidate would have taken her name off of the ballot, I would have refused to vote for her also. I would have stayed home -- or voted republican.

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.


[ Parent ]
Haven't Decided (4.00 / 2)
If I'll vote McCain to knock out Romney who scares me if he actually became President.  Or uncommitted to help stop Clinton who scares me if she is the Democratic Nominee.  It'll be 72 or 84 all over again.


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