Clinton co-chair Ferguson challenges DNC over Michigan

A Fair Challenge (4.00 / 2)

There's no reason to punish superdelegates like Stupak.  I would support Ferguson's proposal provided it's linked to a committment by the DNC to create a schedule of regional rotating primaries.  It's refreshing to see how the national blame for the current situation is now being pinned on Howard Dean rather than on Michigan and Florida.  Debbie Dingell would make an excellent new DNC chair.

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by: Brady @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 19:18:44 PM UTC

Not Dean's fault (4.00 / 5)

I can't stand it when people try to blame Howard Dean for this mess. It wasn't him that moved our date forward, and it wasn't him that decided to punish us. It was a vote of the DNC rules and bylaws committee, which, oddly enough, is made up of more than just Howard Dean.

Want someone to blame? Blame leaders in Michigan (like Debbie Dingell) who pushed for this stupid date change. Blame the members of the rules and bylaws committee, which includes:

Co-Chairs

Alexis Herman (co-chair, Washington, D.C.)
James Roosevelt, Jr. (co-chair, Massachusetts)

Members

Harold Ickes, Jr. (Washington, D.C.)
Donna Brazille (Washington, D.C.)
Donald Fowler (South Carolina)
Allan Katz (Florida)
Elizabeth Smith (Washington, D.C.)
Mark Brewer (Michigan)
Ralph Dawson (New York)
Hartina Flournay (Washington, D.C.)
Carol Khare Fowler (South Carolina)
Alice Germond (Washington, D.C.)
Jaime Gonzalez, Jr. (Texas)
Janice Griffin (Virginia)
Alice Huffman (California)
Thomas Hynes (Illinois)
Ben Johnson (Washington, D.C.)
Elaine Kamarck (Massachusetts)
Eric Kleinfeld (Washington, D.C.)
David McDonald (state of Washington)
Mona Pasquil (California)
Mame Reiley (Virginia)
Garry Shay (California)
Michael Steed (Washington, D.C.)
Sharon Stroschein (South Dakota)
Everett Ward (North Carolina)
Jerome Wiley Segovia (Virginia)
Sarah Swisher (Iowa)
Yvonne Gates (Nevada)
Martha Fuller Clark (New Hampshire)

Note the absence of Howard Dean. It's simply not his fault. If anything, Dean has been the voice of reason, trying to find compromises or get Michigan back into compliance.

As for the proposal itself, I feel like half-votes might be a fair compromise, and I agree that folks like Bart Stupak don't deserve punishment. But Mark Brewer and Debbie Dingell? Take their votes away. They're the ones that screwed this up.

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by: Fitzy @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 21:28:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Dammit, for the last time, it was NOT Dean's fault, it was the MDP's fault. (4.00 / 4)

Once again, for the slow-minded:

The MDP knew what the schedule was.

The DNC rules/bylaws committee--INCLUDING Mr. Brewer, I believe, and Mr. Ickes--who happens to be one of Clinton's top campaign people--voted in favor of that schedule.

The MDP, as well as the Clinton campaign, KNEW what the penalty for violating that schedule was for 8 f*cking months before the "primary" occurred.

Did the Clinton campaign file any formal complaint or challenge beforehand? No.

Did the MDP file any actual lawsuit or take other substantive legal action opposing the penalty before the "primary"? Not that I know of (and no, whining doesn't count as substantive action).

You can argue all you want about whether or not they should have stripped all the delegates, but the fact remains that the MDP agreed to those rules and conditions and knew the penalty for violating them,  and chose to do so anyway.

They thought the DNC would blink. The DNC isn't blinking. End of story.

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by: Brainwrap @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 22:52:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Apologies for the "slow-minded" bit (4.00 / 2)

I'm just extremely irritated by this meme.

The ONLY reason that the Clinton campaign is griping about Michigan is because she's losing nationally. She didn't say boo until after she realized that it wasn't gonna be a cakewalk.

You want to argue that New Hampshire and Iowa should be knocked off their beloved "first in the nation" position? Fine...for 2012, but that's not what was agreed to THIS time around. You want to argue that stripping the entire delegation for violating the schedule is too harsh a penalty? Perhaps so...for 2012, but that's NOT what was agreed to THIS time around.

We can change all the rules in the world for 2012, but THIS primary season, THESE are the rules that were agreed to by ALL the campaigns beforehand--including Clintons.

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by: Brainwrap @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 23:09:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Advice to Mark Brewer: Don't play online poker (3.00 / 3)

If you can't tell when an opponent will call your bluff, you and your bankroll won't last very long.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

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by: Hy Dudgeon @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 23:13:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't yell at me (4.00 / 1)

I'm sorry brain (don't yell at me please) but I do believe this was Dean's fault -- for overreacting. The guidelines - which was followed by the rethugs for God's sake - was to take HALF the delegates, not all. The guidelines also was for EVERY state who moved their primary to get punished, not just the two you want to pick on.

If Dean had enough political judgment (which is kinda his job) this would not still be an issue two-three months after the fact. To cherry pick which states you are going to punish is also a serious lapse in judgment. He practically gift wrapped Michigan & Florida grounds to protest.

Lastly, common sense would tell you that you probably don't want to strip (especially not over 2 million people in large, swing states) the right to vote. So lets say I agree that Brewer/Dingell did misread the signals. If Dean didn't so badly handle this scenario, they wouldn't have a wooden leg to stand on.

(In a court of law, I believe this is called "grounds for appeal".)

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.

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by: yvette248 @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 00:12:35 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I apologize for yelling, but let me ask a question... (3.00 / 3)

Do you have kids? Because that's how Dingell and yes, as sad as this is for me to say, Sen. Levin, Gov. Granholm and others who gave the DNC the finger on this were acting.

When you have kids, you tell them clearly and in no uncertain terms what will happen to them if they misbehave--and you follow through with what you say. Otherwise they'll never take anything you say seriously.

Again, it would have been one thing if the Michigan delegation had formally protested at the time by voting against the schedule or lodging formal complaints about the full-stripping penalty. If they did so at the time, I'll stand corrected. I even agree that the penalty was too severe...but again, that's what was agreed to.

Now, if in fact they're applying the penalty unfairly--that is, if Iowa and/or New Hampshire did also violate the letter of the rules--then you're right that either everyone who violated it should be penalized or none of them should. I've heard differing accounts on this point, so I'm willing to concede the point if proven wrong.

However, the fact also remains that regardless of who you blame for this mess, you can't seriously try to argue that either Florida's or Michigan's primaries were anything close to "fair contests". Yes, Obama chose to take his name off the Michigan ballot...because he was trying to follow the spirit as well as the letter of the rules. It's my understanding that Clinton supposedly agreed to do so as well, then changed her mind at the last minute, but I don't know this for certain. Certainly she went along with the "don't campaign in those states" portion of the agreement, which makes it clear that she didn't have a problem with the rules until after she saw that she might not win.

In any event, the DNC told everyone what would happen if they broke the rules, everyone knew the penalty, and they violated them anyway. If you tell your kid "don't eat that cookie or you won't get dessert tonight" and they eat the cookie anyway, they shouldn't be surprised when they're dessertless.

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by: Brainwrap @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 00:40:38 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Partially agree (4.00 / 2)

I partially agree with a lot of what you said, Brain. Everyone, but everyone, in this case did something wrong. From Iowa for blackmailing the candidates not to campaign here in the first place, to Obama who independently decided to take his name off of the ballot, to Brewer/Dingell/etc. who moved the election in the first place, to Dean who did everything possible to made a bad situation worse.

There is plenty of blame to go around here and I don't think anybody is totally innocent except for the voters who just wanted to have their say in who becomes OUR next president. Find a way to punish the people involved if you want, but don't take away people's right to vote. That's not the solution.

(p.s. If you punished one of your kids for doing something wrong, but didn't punish the other kid for doing the exact same thing -- you're not a very good parent.)

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.

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by: yvette248 @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 00:52:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Question (4.00 / 2)

What, exactly, did Howard Dean do to "make a bad situation worse"? If he did everything possible, what did that include?

I'm no Dean-worshiper, I know that he's a politician and he's human. However, he did not strip us of our delegates, the Rules and Bylaws Committee did. Dean didn't encourage us to move our date, we did that all on our own. If anything, it seems to me that we put him in an impossible position. He doesn't want to offend Michigan and Florida voters, but he's bound by the rules of the party and the decision of the committee.

What has Dean done wrong, and what should he have done differently?

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by: Fitzy @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 01:26:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Mark Brewer (4.00 / 1)

Keep in mind that Mark Brewer didn't make the decision to hold the Michigan Democratic Primary on January 15.  The Michigan Democratic Party Executive Committee did.  Yet, that hasn't kept the same people who argue that Howard Dean is without blame from calling for Mark Brewer's resignation.  

Mark Brewer has kept a relatively low profile during this whole ordeal unlike Howard Dean whose public attacks on Michigan and Florida Democrats have made a bad situation worse.  Mark Brewer will still be around a year from now while Howard Dean will be history regardless of who is selected as the nominee or elected as President.

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by: Brady @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 01:50:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

For the record, I haven't called for Brewer to resign. (0.00 / 0)

I mentioned him as being one of those who agreed to the original rules, but I didn't include him in my list of "those who gave the DNC the finger" along with Dingell etc. because, as you said, he's kept a pretty low profile on this mess. I don't really know what his personal position is on the whole thing...

...which is actually part of the problem. You may not like the type of leadership that Dean has shown, but at least he's showing it: The DNC drew a line in the sand, and he's being vocal about enforcing it. If anyone is showing a "lack of leadership" it's Brewer at the state level--but again, I don't really know for sure, all I know is what I read locally.

How exactly has Dean "attacked" MI/FL Democrats? He's (rightly) criticized the state Dem leadership, but I've never heard him criticize the actual voters.

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by: Brainwrap @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 01:59:50 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's true (4.00 / 1)

And I'll admit, I haven't been as fair to Mark Brewer as I should be, and in the event that he's reading this (unlikely, but possible), I apologize.

Still, while moving the primary date wasn't Brewer's fault alone, and I vaguely remember something about him not being a fan of the idea early on, the vocal supporters who cheered on moving the primary (Debbie Dingell, for one) do deserve some criticism.

Also, don't count Dean out quite yet. He's still got a following in the party. Will he ever run for office again? No. Will he still be DNC chair? Probably not. But Dean will still be around in some capacity. (Cabinet? Party elder? Talk show host?)

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by: Fitzy @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 02:02:43 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Fair point (0.00 / 0)

So okay, Dean is not a member of the rules committee. But to take this as he had absolutely no influence on the decision is kind of a stretch for me. Here are a few of his statements that I have found:

Chairman Howard Dean and members of Florida's congressional delegation met privately Wednesday and issued a joint statement saying, "We are all committed to doing everything we can to ensure that a Florida delegation is seated in Denver."

Michigan and Florida will eventually win their places at the Democratic National Convention, but not until the presidential campaigns agree on how, said Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean in an interview published Friday. "You bring both sides together and say, 'Don't you think it's time that the two campaigns made a deal on how we're going to do this?'?" Dean told The Associated Press.

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.

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by: yvette248 @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 01:59:48 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'll agree with you here except for the "Dean did everything possible to make it worse" bit. (4.00 / 2)

Yes, there's plenty of blame to go around.

However, if adults are determined to act like children, there's not much that you can do about it except treat them as such.

Regarding the voters being punished--you're absolutely correct, which is why I was very much in favor of a do-over; I was against it for awhile, but eventually realized that a properly-run, fresh do-over would be the only way of cleaning up this mess in a way that everyone could work with.

Unfortunately, TPTB in the MDP managed to f*ck that one up as well. A do-over primary was stillborn from the start, because that's a legislative action, which means it was in the hands of the state Republicans, who had no reason to help us out of our own mess (I can't blame them, either).

That left only one option: A do-over caucus of some sort, whether run as a "true" caucus ala Iowa, or run as a "party-run primary" like we did in 2004 (and which is how we were supposed to do it in the first place, after all). Foolishly, the state party decided not to go that route either, for whatever reason. That, too, is something that Howard Dean has absolutely no responsibility or power over--it's up to the state to decide HOW to choose their delegates; the only power the DNC has is to decide under what circumstances they'll accept those delegates.

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by: Brainwrap @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 01:52:19 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh, and regarding punishing kids... (4.00 / 2)

You're absolutely right; if you have more than one kid, they should be punished equally for the same offense.

Fortunately, I only have one child, so I'm off the hook on that one :)

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by: Brainwrap @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 01:53:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Your ideaology does not trump the truth. (1.00 / 1)

Michigan knew the rules and "SPOILED IT'S BALLOT" anyway. No one in the DNC took away the peoples right to vote, we in  Michigan did it all on our own. The bill could have been stopped, Granholm could have vetoed it. If you want to punish those responsible,  vote for different Democrats.

Your intransigence towards the facts and dishonest characterization of the people involved doesn't speak well to your parenting advice. If you think cutting in line is the same crime as moving to get your place back after someone cheats you out of it, go ahead and punish the kids for "doing the exact same thing", you're rewarding dishonesty and being dishonest. The crime wasn't moving, the crime was going out of turn.

Everyone has the right to be a fierce advocate for their position. The dishonest rhetoric and vitriol displayed toward Dean and the DNC in this thread undermine your argument and credibility. The blame is local.

I can understand why people are getting so irritated and YELLING. No matter how many times people point out who is responsible for this fiasco there's a group of people who ignore reality and insist on trashing the wrong people. Pointing out the facts to these people is a waste of time. If the facts don't fit into their narrow view, the facts don't exist.

You say you don't think anybody is totally innocent except for the voters. You sound like Homer Simpson: "It's everyone's fault but mine!"

It's the voters fault for not paying attention until it was to late. It's the voters fault for not telling our local leaders to quit trying to rig it to give Clinton an early knock out punch. It's the voters fault for lying to each other for political advantage. We have the leaders we deserve.

I was an early financial supporter of this site when Matt started this experiment. I don't visit as much as I used to. The petty bickering and dishonest rhetoric has become a waste of time. I can do a lot more good other places than here. You will never convince a blind idealogue of the truth, don't waste to much time humoring them, there's important work to do.

My parents punished me for telling lies to disparage other people. I don't think I'll be take any parenting advice from the Homer Simpson's here at Michigan Liberal.

The only right we have that Bush hasn't infringed on is the right to be stupid. That right is being exercised to its fullest extent here lately.

You've taken your eye off the ball, you're gonna get beaned.

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by: qwerty7 @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:49:34 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The pressure will continue to mount for a solution...watch this video (1.00 / 1)

This was emailed to me today from multiple people.  The DNC needs to come up with a solution soon or the party won't unify this cycle (as if we ever do).  http://youtube.com/watch?v=GhC...

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by: yesiamliberal @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 19:38:46 PM UTC

Easy solution (4.00 / 1)

Tell the children in Michigan to forget it.  If Michigan Dems' egoes can't handle the punishment, piss off and join some other party.

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by: jimwhitaker @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 21:30:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Umm .... what? (4.00 / 2)

I know that a lot of elected officials, campaign co-chairs, and so on are holding out for the Clintons to get a piece of Bill Clinton at their next campaign fundraiser and they're trying to pretend there was an actual contested election for Michigan's Democratic primary, but the rest of us live in what's known as REALITY.  The REALITY has been reviewed several times here .... but once again, MICHIGAN BROKE THE RULES, MICHIGAN MUST PAY THE PENALTY, IF YOU'RE UPSET, BLAME YOUR MDP FOLKS, NOT THE DNC.  THE REST OF THE COUNTRY'S DEMOCRATS WILL LIKELY BE MAD AS HELL IF MICHIGAN'S VOTE SUDDENLY COUNTS IN ANY WAY FORM OR FASHION AFTER THE RULES WERE BROKEN.

Sorry for the all caps, but this makes my blood boil.

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by: jimwhitaker @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 21:28:36 PM UTC

The DNC should reject Ferguson's proposal out of hand (4.00 / 2)

Three reasons off the top of my head:

1. Seating any Michigan delegates based on the January 15 rewards the mandarins of the state party for thumbing their nose at the DNC, its agreed-on primary and caucus schedule, and the 48 other states that played by the rules.

2. Seating the delegates would be a surrender to blackmail and distortions on the part of the Clinton campaign. The only way John McCain can carry this state is if the Clinton campaign continues to wage its destructive scorched-earth tactics against Barack Obama. And no, Senator Obama didn't "disenfranchise" me; Carl Levin, Mark Brewer, and the high potentates of the state party accomplished that. Which brings me to...

3. The superdelegates have the weakest case of all for being seated at the convention. It was their arrogance and incompetence that inflicted this train wreck of a sham primary on the state's rank-and-file Democrats; why should they be rewarded for that with a trip to Denver and invitations to glitzy parties? They ought to stay home and mend fences. A profound apology would be a good first step in that direction.

As for Joel Ferguson, it's too bad his term as MSU trustee doesn't end this year. I'd love to see him bounced out on his ear at the state convention.  

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

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by: Hy Dudgeon @ Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 23:12:51 PM UTC

the bottom line still remains... (4.00 / 1)

...unless the Obama campaign is on board with a plan for a "negotiated-split" of the delegates--Michigan won't be seated, before the Presidential nominee is chosen, under ANY circumstances.

1) In the absence of a "negotiated-split", the DNC's credential committee will vote NOT to seat FL and MI

2) Clinton's only chance will be to file a "minority report of the Credentials Committee" (advocating the seating of MI and FL "as is").

3) Clinton forces will NOT win a floor vote to adopt the minority report.

4) MI and FL won't be seated (until after nominee is chosen), thus, Obama will be nominated.

(Clinton forces winning a floor vote to seat MI and FL "as is" would NEVER be allowed to happen.)

"Those who attempt to censor free speech by filtering the Internet, are... the... TRUE... "tiny cats" of cyberspace."

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by: detroit tiger @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:19:47 AM UTC