"The Rules"

Stick to your day job, Xavier (2.86 / 7)

If you keep playing lawyer, it's only a matter of time until you make an embarrassing blunder. A word to the wise, eh?

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:53:15 AM UTC

Uprated to offset the TR. (3.00 / 3)

Hy's been here before most of us even knew of ML's existence.  Knock off the TR's!

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by: djtyg @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:56:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I wear the TRs as a badge of honor (2.00 / 2)

And I won't stop fighting Team Hillary's efforts to lie, spin, and threaten their way to the nomination.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:09:23 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Especially because Obama supporters (4.00 / 1)

TR Hillary supporters on DK, MyDD and everywhere else.  At least some comments are deserving of them.

Hillary speaks for me.

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by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:46:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Let me get this straight (3.50 / 6)

You troll-rated my comments because Obama supporters troll-rated HRC supporters on other forums?

Your logic is breathtaking.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 22:10:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Selective quoting. (3.40 / 5)

You harp on 'shall', while it is clear from what you quote:

The delegates shall be chosen through processes which: [snip]
(h)  notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in this Section:
(iii) permit unpledged delegates consisting of:

...that 'shall ... permit' is rather less chiseled in stone than you are asserting.

Then you quote:

In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation.

...and somehow nullify (in your own mind) this clear language from the DSP with what you understand the charter to be saying.

Then there is what you DON'T quote:

5. Nothing in the preceding subsections of this rule shall be construed to prevent the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee from imposing additional sanctions, including, without limitation, those specified in subsection (6) of this section C.,...

'Without limitation' means, well, just that. So the 50% penalty is in fact NOT the maximum. As we have seen.

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by: memiller @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:53:42 AM UTC

Well, because rule 8.A is district-level pledged delegates (4.00 / 1)

and does not affect the delegates automatically at the convention because of the DNC Charter.

The Charter supersedes the Delegate Selection Plan, and therefore the R&BC ruling must be in compliance in the Charter.

The National Convention shall be the highest authority of the Democratic Party, subject to the provisions of this Charter.

Bylaws of the Democratic Party shall be adopted to provide for the governance of the affairs of the Democratic Party in matters not provided for in this Charter. Bylaws may be adopted or amended by
a majority vote of:
(a) the National Convention; or
(b) the Democratic National Committee provided that thirty days written notice of any proposed

Unless adopted in the form of an amendment to this Charter or otherwise designated, any resolution adopted by the National Convention relating to the governance of the Party shall be considered a Bylaw.

Section 3.
Each official body of the Democratic Party created under the authority of this Charter shall adopt and conduct its affairs in accordance with written rules, which rules shall be consistent with this Charter, the Bylaws and other provisions adopted pursuant to authority of the Charter, including resolutions or other actions of the National Convention. The Democratic National Committee shall maintain copies of all such rules and shall make them available upon request.

As for the "50%," that's what this little beauty is for:

Unresolved Challenges and Report to the Credentials Committee. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee shall report its activities, together with all challenges and complaints, to the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention. In cases involving unresolved challenges which are appealed to the Credentials Committee, the burden of proof shall rest with the party presenting the challenge

But, fortunately for my side, the challenges have to be rooted in the Charter, rules, and bylaws, and not on conjecture and loose interpretations.

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:46:13 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, because rule 8.A is district-level pledged delegates (4.00 / 1)

and does not affect the delegates automatically at the convention because of the DNC Charter.

The Charter supersedes the Delegate Selection Plan, and therefore the R&BC ruling must be in compliance in the Charter.

The National Convention shall be the highest authority of the Democratic Party, subject to the provisions of this Charter.

Bylaws of the Democratic Party shall be adopted to provide for the governance of the affairs of the Democratic Party in matters not provided for in this Charter. Bylaws may be adopted or amended by
a majority vote of:
(a) the National Convention; or
(b) the Democratic National Committee provided that thirty days written notice of any proposed

Unless adopted in the form of an amendment to this Charter or otherwise designated, any resolution adopted by the National Convention relating to the governance of the Party shall be considered a Bylaw.

Section 3.
Each official body of the Democratic Party created under the authority of this Charter shall adopt and conduct its affairs in accordance with written rules, which rules shall be consistent with this Charter, the Bylaws and other provisions adopted pursuant to authority of the Charter, including resolutions or other actions of the National Convention. The Democratic National Committee shall maintain copies of all such rules and shall make them available upon request.

As for the "50%," that's what this little beauty is for:

Unresolved Challenges and Report to the Credentials Committee. The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee shall report its activities, together with all challenges and complaints, to the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention. In cases involving unresolved challenges which are appealed to the Credentials Committee, the burden of proof shall rest with the party presenting the challenge

But, fortunately for my side, the challenges have to be rooted in the Charter, rules, and bylaws, and not on conjecture and loose interpretations.

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:46:14 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

A law school prof would flunk him for this performance (n/t) (2.60 / 5)

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:10:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Xavier is an undergrad (1.56 / 9)

... at a tiny $20,000+ tuition private Catholic School.

Mostly, he is just parroting Clinton talking points memos, without much understanding.

---

by: William Allen Simpson @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:47:56 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't read too much into that (4.00 / 5)

Scholarships are an amazing thing, aren't they William?  I mean, why else would I leave sunny East LA for Michigan?  Because it certainly wasn't the diversity, the friendliness, or the weather.

I think its interesting, though, the way the Internet recreates the same power structures that exist "IRL."

It's okay though.  Because when I receive comments like this, I think of my mother who got called a wetback when she started going to school at UC-Davis and was told she didn't belong there.

At least you give me credit for going to college, even if you do think that I'm a mindless automaton.  Being accused of being a member of the privileged elite by someone who doesn't know a think about my background is a step forward for working poor people of color... right?

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:09:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well, we do have diversity (4.00 / 2)

We are probably one of the most diverse states in the country.  Its been a while since I checked (back when I was a Midwestern boy going to school in LA - does King Taco still kick ass?), but Michigan may still have the third highest population of Mexican ancestry in the U.S.  We have the highest Arabic population outside of the Middle East.  We have one of the largest "chocolate cities" in the U.S.  We have a significant Palestinian population, Asian population of all flavors, and a significant jewish community.

Outside of primary wars, Midwesterners are pretty friendly.  Everyone says so, even when we're not armed.  Yea, its cold in the winter, but generally we can't see the air.  So, life's a trade off :)

---

by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 13:23:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I wans't being serious (4.00 / 1)

I've met some of the nicest people in Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, and Ohio--I'm starting to love small towns.  I just couldn't believe that someone would attempt to say my opinions weren't valid or lacked merit because I attend Aquinas College.

And, yes, King Taco still kicks ass.  Getting pricey, though.

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 16:20:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Unfortunetly most of that diversity (0.00 / 0)

is in one corner of the state. The rest of us are lily white.:(

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson

---

by: michmark @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 03:00:21 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

A lot like CA (0.00 / 0)

I'm not sure how many states in this country have an even spread of diversity.  I think it tends to be urban and suburban everywhere.  I will say this - in any town that had a major auto factory presence, you had a lot of diversity.

---

by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:23:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't forget! (4.00 / 1)

Before I transferred to Aquinas, I went to a school that cost upwards of $33,000!  That's just a bit less than one of my parents makes for a whole year of work.  The school was actually smaller than Aquinas, and thus even more elite.  You might as well call me a Kennedy, Hilton, Kerry, or Rockafeller!

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:17:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

because the affluent white elite always know best (4.00 / 1)

and people of color should just shut up and listen to them!

We shouldn't attempt to have original ideas.. that's just silly and another sign of their incompetence.

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:18:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ok, here's the thing (4.00 / 5)

That bit referencing the school you attend was a nasty bit.  Looked mean-spirited.  Might've passed for "just joshin" if there'd been a little winky emoticon or something tacked on but there wasn't.  Doesn't reflect well on the poster.

Sadly you have so far responded THREE times to it and I think that was a mistake for two reasons:  First of all, left to stand out on its own it's ugliness would've been more glaring and wouldn't be counter-balanced by your subsequent off-the-mark tangent inferring racism and what not when it was really a classist thing.  Second, I realize you're young (lucky you!) so my advice to you, especially if you are going to stay in politics, posting three responses to this comment is as revealing as bold, 72 pt. font headline screaming "your comment has gotten so under my skin I can think of little else!".

I would rather gnaw off one of my own limbs than let any antagonist know they had gotten to me so effectively.  

Just my .0125

Julie  

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.

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by: JNelson @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 13:12:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It was too early in the AM (4.00 / 2)

Sorry?  I was up at a little after 3 a.m. (literally though, this actually a joke) this morning to do last minute checks before the polls opened today here in Indiana, and was not in the mood.  Now that I've had breakfast, talked with voters, and am resting my laurels, I see your point.

I apologize.  I shouldn't respond to immaturity with anger, and I liked the bit about letting it speak for itself.

Hillary speaks for me.

---

by: XavierLA @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 16:23:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You are a bright fellow Xavier (4.00 / 1)

And a bright future ahead in any career choice you make.  Thought I'd share a hard-learned lesson or two with ya.  Thank you for taking it as intended.

Cheers,
Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.

---

by: JNelson @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 16:32:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Xavier - (4.00 / 1)

I think you are wrong, in this case - but I am very glad you are here.

---

by: memiller @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 15:46:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Parroting Clinton talking points indeed (2.67 / 3)

The writing style of this diary is quite dissimilar to that of his previous work, and it was obvious to me which parts were regurgitated out of Clinton Central and which were his.

The part about the definition of "shall," taken from a programming manual, was unintentionally hilarious.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 22:14:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I appreciate Xavier's passion (3.20 / 5)

but saying things like this:

Aquinas student Lopez-Ayala said he would not campaign for Obama, should he win the nomination. He thought he would "probably" vote for him.

Are you shitting me?!? You would not vote for the Democratic candidate? You are one of the reasons we could lose in November. Your words help widen the gap in the Democratic party and that I do not appreciate.

"Kill the headlights and put it in neutral..."

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by: AikoAdam @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 19:12:21 PM UTC

Xavier (4.00 / 1)

Xavier's tone in that quote was actually more diplomatic than some of the statements Obama supporters here at Michigan Liberal have said in the past in response to a potential Clinton nomination.  It is a mistake for supporters of either candidate to think that all Democrats, including activists like Xavier, are going to automatically unite behind the Democratic candidate.  The nominee, whoever it is, is going to have some healing and uniting to do.  Perhaps telling Xavier he's "one of the reasons we could lose in November" isn't the type of tone that's going to close the gap in the Democratic Party?

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by: Brady @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 20:15:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Screw Diplomacy! (3.40 / 5)

We must continue to fight like Itchy and Scratchy. :-)

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by: rich @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 20:22:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Deletions (4.00 / 3)

Okay, I'll crush you then!  Seriously though, I have to admit to writing a dozen comments in the past few days only to delete them rather than posting them because they aren't going to help heal the divide.

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by: Brady @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 20:42:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

YES. (4.00 / 3)

Exactly. Because politics should be about sunshine and puppies! And rainbows! And donuts. Mmmmm donuts.

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by: PerfectStormer @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 20:54:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

plus, the Obama volunteer (4.00 / 5)

said far worse things about the possiblity she might vote for HRC.

Folks, beware of quotes to the Grand Rapids Press -- THEY ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS!

West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

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by: philgoblue @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 21:06:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

and yet (3.00 / 3)

that person doesn't post here (that I'm aware of). But if they did I would tell them the same thing. Nice try at diplomacy though Phil. :O)

"Kill the headlights and put it in neutral..."

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by: AikoAdam @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 23:13:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

if you mean (2.50 / 2)

"some of the statements Obama supporters here" as me, I would suggest backing it up. I generally steer clear of the primary diaries and maintain that I will vote for the Democratic nominee.  

"Kill the headlights and put it in neutral..."

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by: AikoAdam @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 23:04:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I did not mean you n/t (4.00 / 2)

---

by: Brady @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 23:44:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Riiight (0.00 / 0)

To your last point, I bet letting that sentiment grow will help us greatly come general election time. Meanwhile the repugs gather around McSame, like we all should have known they would.

I bet people like Story who were in Iowa for Dean, and other places all over the country were waay bummed when he was out. But guess what? I'd be nickels to dimes he voted Dem in November. Because the end goal is bigger than what is currently happening. This is coming from a person who is more focused on a local state house race. We must win the Presidency in November.  

"Kill the headlights and put it in neutral..."

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by: AikoAdam @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 23:12:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Presidency (0.00 / 0)

You're not going to win the Presidency in November by making personal attack on folks like Xavier.  The thing about primaries is that it becomes the responsibility of the winning candidate and his supporters to reach out to other Democrats if they hope to win in the general election.  Xavier or any other Democrat has no obligation to support Obama if he becomes the nominee.  Act like he does and McCain will become President.  The reason Obama hasn't been able to wrap this up so far is because many Democrats feel Obama is out of touch with mainstream America including working class blue collar Democrats that own guns, go to church and put their hand on their hearts during the national anthem.

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by: Brady @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 23:55:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, the reason Obama hasn't been able to wrap it us is... (4.00 / 2)

Hillary Rodham Clinton and her surrogates have used most of the pages of the Republican playbook against him, including generations-old anti-intellectual talking points and waving the bloody shirt of 9/11--complete with pictures of Osama bin Laden.

As for your comment, I'm astonished that you didn't bring Birkenstocks, latte, and the Prius into the discussion. If you're going to use a broad brush, why f**k around? Use the industrial-strength version.

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 03:58:56 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

If you believe that (0.00 / 0)

Then Clinton has done Obama a huge favor in helping to prepare him now to face what he would be confronted with in several months when a lot more people will be paying attention a lot closer to the day we actually select a President.

---

by: Brady @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:33:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I read Xavier's remark... (3.00 / 4)

...yesterday in my local paper. It was on the Gannett news service, so, I'll assume it was all over the state.

At first, I didn't even make the connection that Xavier Lopez-Ayala was the "Xavier LA" of ML.

***The rest of this post is not meant as a personal attack--but, is merely an illustrative opinion of what I, personally, believe about ANY person making such a remark.

Anyway, all I thought when I read that remark about "not campaigning for Obama" was ...what kind of an an idiot would make such a remark, and, allow it to be attributed for statewide publication? (Maybe a McCain supporter planted in the Democratic ranks?)

It's clear the remark is COMPLETELY counter-productive to winning in November.

Being quoted in a statewide newspaper release--making a counter-productive, idiotic remark like that--is a pretty pathetic way to seek out your "15 minutes". I can almost imagine the enthusiastic response to the reporter's question: Can I use your name and quote you? Yippee!

No matter who is nominated--Clinton, Obama, or Santa Claus--EVERY Democrat needs to go "balls to the wall" to campaign for the nominee. (Especially in a swing state like MI).

I sure as hell don't want McCain appointing the next Supreme Court justice (among MANY other concerns.)

"Those who attempt to censor free speech by filtering the Internet, are... the... TRUE... "tiny cats" of cyberspace."

---

by: detroit tiger @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 20:31:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

particularly in GannettLand, (4.00 / 5)

since they have a talent for picking one sentence (or part of a sentence) and turning it into what passes for conventional wisdom.

PhilGoBlue's observation is right on the money:

Folks, beware of quotes to the Grand Rapids Press -- THEY ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS!

This is also true of the Press & Argus, the Lansing State Journal, the Freep, the Times Herald...

Remember that they are looking for conflict.  Even if you feel that way about Obama or Clinton, it's smarter to keep it to yourself.  Maybe, just maybe, this will push reporters to actually cover this like the United States Presidential Election, instead of the junior class president election...

yeah, I know I'm just a cockeyed optimist

---

by: kelster @ Tue May 06, 2008 at 22:11:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here's our problem (4.00 / 2)

You are basically correct, right down the line.  But this is the issue.  We can wag our finger at Xavier's comments (which may just be a reaction born out of the completely f***ing immature treatment he receives from Obamadrones who see that someone isn't drinking the Kool Aid yet).  However, the reality is that A LOT of people feel like Xavier does right now.  The only difference is that they are not telling us.

The much bigger issue isn't with party activists (who frankly are a hell of a lot less important than they were when we had a real political party generations ago).  The much bigger issue is with solid and dependable dem voters, who probably are much, much more likely to feel the same way Xavier does.  Getting them to unite is a different ball of wax.  We can't get them new jobs in politics, or shift donations, or trade votes on legislation.  These are just "the people" that Obama seems incapable of connecting with.

---

by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:40:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

cause vs. effect (4.00 / 4)

You may be right that lots of people share Xav's opinion.

The problem is the media echo chamber: one phrase gets picked up & repeated a million times.  It morphs into a "fact" that "everybody" knows.

Keep going down this road... Should Obama become the nominee, how much financial and volunteer support would he lose if "everybody knows" that he's "incapable" of connecting with "solid and dependable Dem" voters (I assume you're equating this group with Clinton supporters)?  This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  

I'm not advocating that we all fall into happy GOP lock-step -- just to be mindful that the way the story is told in the mainstream media has an unpleasant way of turning into reality.

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by: kelster @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 13:04:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Good point (0.00 / 0)

The strangest thing about this primary is that neither of our candidates is necessarily getting the votes they "deserve" or are natural.  I don't think the solid and dependable dems want to vote for HRC, and Obama is about as black as the average arugula-eating _____.

But I think not talking about a candidate's short comings leaves us scratching our head about the inevitable "Swift Boat Buttholes for Goobers" attack.  

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by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 13:32:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The sad thing is (4.00 / 2)

that none of this really matters.

Let me lay out some truths for you all:

1) The Michigan delegation will be seated.

2) Clinton will not be able to use the Florida and Michigan delegations to save her nomination chances

3) The election will be over in a month (if not sooner judging from tonight's results)

4) All the delegates, pledged/super/inebriated, will vote for the same person...the winner of the primary

5) Barring a very unlikely colossal collapse, that nominee will be Senator Obama

6) Not a single soul will be bothered about this issue come November

7) The Democratic Party will unite behind the nominee, the aforementioned Senator Obama

And finally...

8) A large number of individuals who wasted endless amounts of time cyber-worrying about this non-issue will not show a second of realization that they wasted six months typing away over this when they could have been using that time to prepare for November.

I look forward to the additional three-five months kvetching about the importance of this issue and the impact it had on sending the least electable candidate forward to face McCain and oh noes we are going to lose Michigan brigade...

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 03:20:34 AM UTC

I agree with you on most of these points (4.00 / 1)

but how does this end in a month or less? Will the super delegates have made up their minds by then and will they break for Obama enough to give him the nomination. Or can he win it some other way?

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson

---

by: michmark @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 03:37:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Super delegates (0.00 / 0)

will step in and end this. Expect to start seeing it happening this week.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 15:51:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree with you on most of these points (4.00 / 3)

except the inebriated delegates will miss the vote since they'll be outside having a smoke, passed out back at the hotel, or looking for the red light district.  Therefore, they'll miss the vote and some lucky alternate will get it!!

Seriously, though, the Primary Farse has already caused serious problems that will effect November all up and down the ticket.  Word is entire County ExecComs have resigned because of The Fiasco.  That's aint good.

West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

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by: philgoblue @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:04:51 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I've seen (and written about) (4.00 / 1)

some of those problems in our neck of the woods, but I had not heard of entire county committees resigning - whoa. I'm tempted to ask for details, but on second thought, maybe we should not be dwelling on that at this point.

---

by: memiller @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:51:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree with you on most of these points (4.00 / 1)

At least through point number 5.  And while I agree that the Democratic Party establishment will unite behind the nominee, that certainly doesn't mean that traditional Democratic voters will.  There seems to be a dangerous form of math being played by Obama supporters that they can use new voters inspired by Obama to make up for the loss of some traditional Democrats and that they will be able to force other Democrats to support Obama.  That won't work.  If Obama's going to become President, it will be the result a centrist political shift.

---

by: Brady @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 10:25:47 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Only if you accept (0.00 / 0)

that this issue will stand alone in the fish bowl.

As soon as McCain and the Republicans start in on Obama, Democrats will remember why we are fighting this election and for what...

They aren't stupid.

By the time the balloons drop (hopefully they do this time) at the convention, there will be nothing but a trace of this division left.

The only reason there is division is because the primary race is divisive...as soon as we start another race (the general election), voters will re-organize their thoughts about that race and this one will be nothing of consequence.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 15:57:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Damn Skippy! (4.00 / 1)

I agree with your points.  It was much ado about (in the end) nothing.  It is my hope everyone can just move forward, enough of the name-calling and nastiness, let's get to work.

If you're too soured by the Presidential primary then find a more local candidate and go make a postiive difference.

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.

---

by: JNelson @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 14:54:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not Soured by the Primary Process (0.00 / 0)

Even though my preferred candidate likely won't win the nomination and the one who will win was my fourth choice at best, I surprisingly don't feel disappointed at all.  

Part of it is that I realize I made the right choice in supporting Clinton.  While she ran a disappointly weak campaign early on as the establishment candidate, she has come to represent the values and blue-collar portion of the Democratic Party I come from and she has been persistant in making our voice heard in the campaign and ensuring that Jeffersonian-Jacksonian classic liberalism will continue to dominate the party.  I am thrilled that she can continue to win states in middle America like Pennsylvania and Indiana when most other candidates would have conceeded.  Many people respect her and personally like her more now than they did a year ago and she'll continue to be a powerful force in national politics regardless of what happens in November.

This has also been the most democratic primary process I have seen in my lifetime.  It certainly didn't have the scripted feel that many past primaries have had.  From start to finish, all the states and territories have been important to the process, not just Iowa, New Hampshire and a few Super Tuesday states.

And even though we're uncertain of if and how and who from Michigan will take part in the convention, I believe Michigan's Democratic leaders did the right in standing up to a flawed system, challenging it and likely forcing real primary reform in the near future.

---

by: Brady @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 16:07:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree with everything you said (4.00 / 1)

until the last part.

Our leaders screwed us over the opportunity to take part in one of the most dynamic and potentially map changing primary elections in a life time.

And for what?

So that we can say we protested a flawed electoral system?

Only if we are punished will that be accomplished, because if we aren't, we have actually given Iowa and New Hampshire the precedent they need to violate any future solution with impunity.

This is a perfect example of the Law of Unintended Consequences. This is what happens when you have individuals who do not think through the ramifications of the actions beyond short term political considerations...which is exactly what our state Democratic leaders did!

Even when they were being warned by the grass roots and the national party organization of these exact points ahead of time.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 16:22:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I took part (0.00 / 0)

I took part in a legislatively passed, gubanatorialy signed, MDP approved primary contest on January 15 of which the courts have upheld the results with which our delegates were selected in accordance with.  Millions of other Michigan voters took part with me and like me had the opportunity to vote for their first choice among the candidates of which their were more on the ballot than there were yesterday in North Carolina or Indiana.  Whether the DNC includes our delegates in the nomination process or not remains to be seen but I suspect they will and those delegate votes will all go to the same person just as they would in any other year.

I'm sorry you feel unsatisfied Nazgul, but I believe Michigan's Democratic leaders did what the majority of Michigan Democrats they represent wanted them to do.

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by: Brady @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 16:36:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

All of which (4.00 / 1)

has what, exactly to do with the point I raised?

You know, the bolded part...

As far as your, "majority of Michigan Democrats" line, show me data or you are correct...you have nothing but a faith based approach to understanding the anger and pissed-offishness of the party rank and file.

The fact that Bishop was on board with this plan should have been your first red flag.

Given your position on this issue and the failure to come up with strategic thinking on the non-binding abortion bill suggests to me that it is really important we get rid of term limits...

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by: Nazgul35 @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 19:23:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I think most of us participate in these debates (4.00 / 3)

because we enjoy political argument. It's recreation. It's no more a waste of time than running or bowling, except for the lack of cardio benefit.

Now, if you are doing it in place of walking your precinct, thinking you are accomplishing something, then you are sadly misguided.

In saying this, I am not for a moment running down the real positive benefits of a blog like this one, or West Michigan Rising, in introducing candidates, passing along information, discussing strategies, etc. And when you realize that the most-commented diaries over the last six months have been the primary diaries, I can see where one might think that people had their priorities out of whack. But all the other information here has been read and absorbed, by many who never comment at all. I hear from them at local party meetings.

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by: memiller @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 15:28:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]