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Ramifications from the Senate Bailout vote could last long and run deep

by: LiberalLucy

Mon Dec 15, 2008 at 15:18:23 PM EST


With the entire state seemingly up in arms after last week's flipping of the bird by the Republican U.S. Senate, the fallout got me thinking about what lies ahead for the coming electoral cycle.

Never before have I seen such a complete and total unified reaction from Democrats, independents, media, and even Republicans on one singular state issue. Sure there were a couple exceptions, like those being fed the GOP talking points like mother's milk, but as we so quickly learn in politics, rational logic doesn't necessarily have to apply to all of us. 

With the news this morning that Pete 'Turtlegate' Hoekstra won't seek re-election in two years in the 2nd Congressional District and is still mulling a run for governor (how many years has he been mulling that?) and Markos' thoughts on the subject, it got me thinking. 

How might the ramifications of the Senate Republican vote play out electorally for our state over the next two years?

There aren't any major elections for another two years, but a vote this large that affects essentially an entire state is not likely to be forgotten anytime soon. And the case was cut and dried, so there's no mistaking precisely who the perpetrators are.

Will we see local Republican candidates run against the actions of their congressional party members, or will we see them delicately two-stepping their way through a messy minefield? How are Republican gubernatorial candidates going to handle it without jumping party ship?

LiberalLucy :: Ramifications from the Senate Bailout vote could last long and run deep

This isn't just another issue-based vote like Choice, Marriage Equality, or a handful of other issues that run the gamut of both major parties. This is about allowing our entire state to go bankrupt, akin to watching a guy drown while you hold the life raft and wave goodbye.

If Democrats play their cards smartly, the drum will beat long and hard on this vote, so much so that voters won't have an opportunity to forget about it. And this isn't just about the current and former autoworkers themselves.

This is about the automotive suppliers, the gas stations across from the plants and office parks. It's about the movie theaters and retail stores in the cities like Lansing, Flint, Ecorse, and Dearborn, all cities whose very economic future depends on the auto industry.

Newton tells us that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but in this case, I think this may be the one exception to the rule. Laid off autoworkers will remember, their family members will remember and every one who is negatively affected will remember.

Two years may be a long time off, but I'm not sure it's enough time for Republicans to get the bulls-eye off their backs by then.

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this only helps (4.00 / 3)
this vote only helps dems and helps workers in the long run.

reminds of a time back in the day when our local union was a bit scattered and bickering with each other. in walked a president who preceded to galvanize us and unite us like never before because of his dick behavior.

same thing here. this will only unify. and make the card check thing a top priority.

thanks, gop!  


Probably (4.00 / 5)
but Dems can't afford to be laissez-faire about this, and assume that folks are going to remember and still be upset about this.

Beat the drum, it's all about beating the drum...

I want to change the world, not help people adjust to it. - Millie Jeffrey, MI - National Women's labor and Democratic activist, Presidential Medal of Freedom Recipient


[ Parent ]
Even The GR Press (4.00 / 3)
has been strong in favor of the auto loan on both the front page and in the editorial section.

West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

[ Parent ]
Bullseye! (4.00 / 3)
Exactly Lucy. Exactly.  I think Shelby-Cocker just killed the Republican Brand here for some time (hopefully about 23 months at least).

West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

Michigan will not vote Republican for a generation (4.00 / 4)
Michigan Will Not Vote Republican For a Generation
http://www.motherjones.com/moj...
When Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964, he reportedly turned to his press secretary, the now well-known journalist Bill Moyers, and said, "We have lost the South for a generation."

I think it's safe to say we've seen something similar this week. Mitch McConnell and Senate Republicans blocked a bailout for the auto industry late Thursday night, leaving the Big 3 and the hundreds of thousands who rely on them for their daily wages in the lurch. Here's the key point: McConnell and company didn't decide that ruining Christmas for thousands of families was worth it because they felt Detroit needs to be retrofitted for a 21st century economy and that that fundamental realignment can only happen by scrapping the whole operation and starting over under new management. That would be a legitimate reason for opposing the bailout. I'm not sure I agree with it - if we have hundreds of billions for the financial industry, I'm sure we can find some for the automakers that the government can tie to innovation benchmarks and new management quotas. But it's a reasonable position to take.


Used the link in this post (4.00 / 2)
to expand on my thoughts for both here in MI and nationwide at dKos.

Thanks for sharing!  

I want to change the world, not help people adjust to it. - Millie Jeffrey, MI - National Women's labor and Democratic activist, Presidential Medal of Freedom Recipient


[ Parent ]
My father-in-law *HATES* the UAW. I mean, *HATES* it. (4.00 / 2)
He's actually quite progressive socially, but is very conservative fiscally, and despises unions with a passion for reasons both personal and philosophical. He's basically the "Wall St. Republican" type--he doesn't care what people do in their personal lives as long as the economy is healthy. Needless to say, he's been none too happy this past year or so. Anyway, in case I didn't make it clear, he really, really dislikes unions.

HOWEVER, even he is on the UAW's--and the rest of Michigan's--side on this fiasco.

He may hate unions, but he hates stupidity, vidictiveness and corruption more, and he recognizes exactly why the Southern GOP Senators did this: To line their own pockets politically while simultaneously breaking the back of the UAW (and unions in general), period.

If the GOP has managed to infuriate my father-in-law, they've pretty much lost all but the most wingnutty of Republicans in this state, I'd say.


despite the trolls (0.00 / 0)
Despite the trolls calling me a "wingnut" because they have no concept of how to discuss actual issues... I want this bailout to pass.

I don't want the strings attached to include union wage cuts (even though I think it would be nice to get rid of mandatory dues requirements). The CEOs had done a terrible job: I think the biggest string that could be added is to zero out CEO wages until the mess gets fixed. They each have already been paid millions for running their companies onto the ground.


[ Parent ]
how about zeroing out the wages of CEOs of the financial companies (0.00 / 0)
heck, they actively conspired to package and sell bad loans to one another. They knew they were buying bad products and gambling.

If you're going to call for the CEOs of the Big Three to work without pay, then I think you have to do the same for every financial company - or frankly any company in any line of business that receives money or assets (such as land) from the government in the form of a loan or gift or incentive to keep the company in business, correct?


[ Parent ]
yes, lando (0.00 / 0)
Yes. Do you agree that it was a big mistake to give the financial institutions a "blank check" with the bailout?

As for the call for CEOs to work without pay, I only make this call for the companies we bail out. Then it is our business. It is our money they are wasting. In the case of the companies we are bailing out, the CEOs have done a very very bad job. Let them take a dollar.

I'm not sure this is necessary for every single company. Only the ones where the CEOs have run them into the ground. And mark my words (sorry, trolls) the top brass of the Big 3 have run them into the ground, not the UAW.


[ Parent ]
Do you even know what a troll is? (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Anything to avoid discussing real issues? (0.00 / 0)
Anything to avoid discussing real issues, it seems. Now you want to get into the definition of meaningless insult words.

I eagerly look forward to you bring up a vigorous debate on the definition of "poopy-face".


[ Parent ]
You brought it up. n/t (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Just like... (0.00 / 0)
The term "troll" here is no more substantive and meaningful than the term "poopy-face". I brought up the latter to point out how silly the former is.  

[ Parent ]
So by your logic... (0.00 / 0)
you're avoiding discussing real issues.

[ Parent ]
True (0.00 / 0)
You completely stopped referring to actual issues in that post, reducing the topic to your version of the poopy-face insult. Seems that is all you were willing to discuss at that point.

[ Parent ]
So we agree... (0.00 / 0)
you were avoiding discussing what you consider to be a real issue.

[ Parent ]
No.... (0.00 / 0)
I was discussing real issues. You changed the subject entirely to insults. So I followed your lead.

To bring it back from the direction you took it in, are you aware of cases where the UAW has been found to have stolen members' dues money?


[ Parent ]
You brought it up first. (0.00 / 0)
We are in agreement on that.  And you didn't answer the original question.

Like I said in the other post, you complain about substantial issues when you're backed into a corner.


[ Parent ]
I don't... (0.00 / 0)
I don't complain about substantial issues. I explain about them. I have yet to be backed into a corner, shown by how many times you fly off the handle (waahhh! worthless, tit-baby, troll) compared to how many times I fly off the handle.

Since you are being obtuse here, what are we in agreement on now? That the UAW forcing/stealing dues happens, has happened, and is illegal?


[ Parent ]
Answer the question. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I answered it many times already (0.00 / 0)
But I guess you were too busy composing the tit-baby insult. That was a classic.

[ Parent ]
No you didn't. (0.00 / 0)
Do you know what a troll is?  If so, what is it?

[ Parent ]
Try again.... (0.00 / 0)
I refuse to get into a debate over the definition of your preferred version of "you are a poopy-face".

Good day.


[ Parent ]
So you don't know. (0.00 / 0)
You kind of answered it.  By dodging it.

[ Parent ]
well (4.00 / 1)
I definitely think the blank check given to financial institutions(especially with no enforceable oversight) was a horrible decision.

You mentioned before in another post that it is okay for CEOs of major companies to make 300 to 500 times the pay of the average employee at a company - simply because, in order to get great leaders, they have to be high paid. If the CEOs of every company that got a "bail out" have to work for free, why would they? Are they indentured servants to the company as part of the terms of the "bail out"? Why wouldn't they say "screw it" and leave? And, who would take over any company riddled with problems for no pay whatsoever?

I'm curious how you define "bail out". A bridge loan, apparently, qualifies. What other types of assistance would you consider to be a "bail out"? What about when states give land and major tax breaks to a company to build facilities there... like, for example, when Honda or Toyota or Mercedes Benz gets a big chunk of money and assets to build a facility in a state? Does that qualify as a bail out?

What about companies that threaten to move unless the government gives them a sweet deal to stay... these can be typical manufacturing businesses, or even sports stadiums and the like. Is it a "bail out" to give these corporations "corporate welfare" to keep jobs in a city or state?

And, how far down the line does the "you have to work for free to get a bail out" travel - just the CEOs, or other top level management, or midlevel management... how far down the org chart is it required to meet your criteria... and again, how do you retain any management?

When you get down to it, the biggest problem at the moment facing GM and Chrysler is that the credit freeze caught them at a very bad cash flow time. Ford is lucky enough that they had enough cash flow to get through this crunch for a longer period of time. It's not bad management at the big three's fault that gas spiked more than triple the price due to an elective war that has been terribly mismanaged. It's not bad management at the big three's fault that the financial markets around the world have tumbled due to deregulated and un-monitored bad investments.

It's not just the big three. It's big business across the board. It's Honda and Toyota and Tesla and manufacturing companies everywhere, especially if they have huge debts and risk built into their business model.

Taking away the salaries of the CEOs does not fix the problem. It gives people a warm fuzzy... but it doesn't address the core of the problem. Sure - reduce travel, reduce expenses to a drastic level, but to say, "you must work for free or else we kill your company" is short-sighted, and will be ineffective.

When Chrysler got their bridge loan in the Iacocca days, Iacocca volunteered to give up his salary. That was a nice gesture... but it was simply a PR stunt. The bottom line is that the government loaned Chrysler the money, it helped the company restructure, and Chrysler paid back the loan EARLY, which ended up being profitable for the US government. There wasn't a massive loss of jobs, the region didn't fall into turmoil, and a major company was saved, later making highly successful vehicles and big profits.

By the way, I do have some significant concerns about the difference between loaning to a public traded company versus a private equity firm-owned company. I think the Government should be very careful in how they decide to structure any bridge loan to Cerberus-owned Chrysler.


[ Parent ]
If you think I'm a troll, you don't know me very well... (4.00 / 2)
...and I haven't a clue who you are, so I'll take your self-description of "wingnut" to indicate that you're a hardcore Republican, is that correct?

If I'm misunderstanding your point, I'll stand corrected.

If I'm not misunderstanding you, then perhaps I should explain my point more clearly: It no longer matters what hardcore Republicans think, at least in this state, under these circumstances. The GOP has essentially lost Michigan for a generation.

Now, that doesn't mean that Dems are going to magically win every Congressional seat in the state, and guys like Brooks Patterson are still safe. It's even conceivable that they'll eke out a win in the Governor's race. My point is that it just became a hell of a lot harder to do these things.


[ Parent ]
If you think I'm a troll, you don't know me very well. (0.00 / 1)
"...and I haven't a clue who you are, so I'll take your self-description of "wingnut" to indicate that you're a hardcore Republican, is that correct?"

No. I have never joined the party, and the idea of doing so puts me off. Free Republic drives me bonkers. I seriously considered voting for Obama for a while, even though in the end I did not. I think Rush Limbaugh is a blindly-partisan editorialist with a nasty mean streak.

There, how hardcore am I?

Seems like you, unlike some here, and like some others here, are not a screaming ranter.

"The GOP has essentially lost Michigan for a generation."

This is all day-to-day, with the bailout. This might all be forgotten with events in the next few days.

But you are right, if in fact this is the last bailout attempt, the GOP shot it down, and GM/etc all go crashing and burning into chaos. In that case, the GOP will get a lot of wrath.

But if it is pulled out of the fire, this vote will be forgotten by most.  


[ Parent ]
What issues? (4.00 / 4)
your point is that people who strike for better wages are lazy?

You are a real Algonquin round tabler there junior.

The strength of the logic, the shear superior intellect it takes to conceive such an argument...

You aren't even bright enough to realize you use right wing talking points to foster you "argument," if that is what it can be called.

This might pass for a superior discussion around whatever sad diner table you occupy, but it isn't even close to being anything that approaches a discussion topic...

What pearls of wisdom are you going to offer up next? American workers are too lazy to do the work of immigrants?

Run off to Little Green Footballs and work out your kinks there for a while before you try the big leagues...this site chewed up and spit out the current chair of the Michigan Republican party...


[ Parent ]
hey sidgrange... (4.00 / 5)
So...   you said that you don't belong to a political party. Is that correct?  Well, I am not surprised. You seem like a person who does not want to have to pay your own way.

You are against having to pay mandatory dues to a union.

Are you against having to pay taxes, too?

Are you one of those people who just wants the rest of us to pay their way?

You can get all the benefits, but you don't have to pay the costs.

How nice for you.

Some of us are willing to pay our own fair share.


Local GOP can Break the Brand (0.00 / 0)
There is a danger here with the national party going nuts: the local candidates can "sistah souljah" McCorkle and company and thereby try to bury their own bad name in the State.  The US Senate action has given them an excuse to rebrand.  A few smarter ones have stepped up in protest: Hoekstra noticeably changed his tune; from afar I see that Cox had something in the Free Press; and McCotter has been really banging the drum on his web site.  

Fortunately for every ounce of political common sense there are the pounds of conservative stupidity lying around.  My favorite being the insistence on a right-to-work initiative.

All the same, I'd be cautious.


It's hard to change teh national brand (0.00 / 0)
hard, but not impossible. On both those points, see Southern Democrats ... and also New England Republicans (if you can find any).

West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

[ Parent ]
New England Republicans? (0.00 / 0)
"hard, but not impossible. On both those points, see Southern Democrats ... and also New England Republicans (if you can find any)."

I found one. Joe Lieberman.


[ Parent ]

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