So Much For Civility, Virg TV is On The Air!

Reply (0.00 / 0)

I totally agree. Virg acts like he can fix all of Michigan's problems by....attacking Andy Dillon. Although, not everyone may agree with Andy Dillon at least you know you are going to get a thoughtful, straight answer but when I hear Bernero all I get is yelling, attacking, the same list of 5 things he's apparently done in the City of Lansing, and no real idea of what he stands for or his plan to fix Michigan.

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by: brownemily @ Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 00:20:17 AM UTC

Not the Bernero Campaign (4.00 / 1)

It sounds like it is being run by the Genesee County Democratic Committee, not the campaign itself. Make of that what you will.

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by: boehmianrhapsody @ Fri Jul 09, 2010 at 23:23:23 PM UTC

It's not a hard concept...basic math really (0.00 / 0)

Virg Bernero claims that as Mayor he's saved or created 6,000+ jobs. The Lansing Economic Development Corp. calls it 7,033 since Bernero took office in 2006.

Whether 6,000 or 7,000 (call it 6,000+), those same years saw the devastating impact of the down economy -- in Michigan and the nation as a whole -- which has caused overall jobs numbers to decline and the rate to go up.

Both of these things are true. Jobs were created and saved in Lansing, but more were lost as a result of economic forces greater than a Mayor, a House Speaker or a Governor to counter.

Yet somehow, Andy Dillon -- who as a "businessman" and holder of advanced degrees should know better -- concludes that the 6,000+ jobs were never created or saved at all. And eager shills like Brady and MSURyanJ are all too happy to repeat the falsehood and smear Bernero's efforts as Mayor.

What basic math tells us is that, had Bernero truly done nothing and never created or saved the 6,000+ jobs, then the Lansing employment numbers would be WORSE BY 6,000+ JOBS, and the unemployment rate would be HIGHER because of the 6,000+ jobs that DIDN'T get created or saved.

Honestly, what is the matter with folks that they can't grasp this? It's the same with the federal stimulus and the jobs preserved by rescuing GM and Chrysler. Huge positive numbers, lost amid even huger negatives -- a legacy of the Bush Administration and the financial and housing bubbles that will take years to correct. But without the stimulus and other concrete actions, we'd all be that much worse off.

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by: helzapoppn @ Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 00:16:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Simply not true (0.00 / 0)

Helzapoppn - Bernero's claims are refuted because they simply aren't true.  According to an independent review of Bernero's claim's, he's grossly exaggerating the numbers.

For example, 51% of the jobs Bernero takes credit for were created in 2006, the year he took over as Mayor.  As hard as it would be to take credit for jobs being created in your first months as Mayor, those numbers also include nearly 1000 jobs that were created as part of projects that started in 2005, the year BEFORE he became Mayor.  In other words, he's taking credit for other people's work.

In addition, unemployment numbers have nearly doubled in Lansing since 2006.  5.8% in 2006 to 11.1% at the end of 2009.  More recent numbers from 2010 have unemployment as high as 11.7% in the city.

So, excuse me while I don't fall for his campaign tricks.

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by: MSURyanJ @ Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 15:56:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

So how exactly is Virg to blame for that? (0.00 / 0)

Great Lakes, Great Times, Great Scott

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by: ScottyUrb @ Sun Jul 11, 2010 at 05:59:51 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

?? (0.00 / 0)

You're suggesting Virg isn't to blame for being caught grossly exaggerating the number of jobs he supposedly created while mayor?

Or he is also not to blame for Lansing's unemployment rate nearly doubling during his time in office?

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by: MSURyanJ @ Sun Jul 11, 2010 at 20:35:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's All Virg's Fault (4.00 / 5)

Because absolutely nothing happened in the last few years to affect Lansing unemployment other than his actions as mayor.

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by: boehmianrhapsody @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 02:01:32 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

1000 4's for this (4.00 / 2)

I'm sick and tired of seeing Virg Bernero blamed for Lansing's unemployment. I'm sick and tired of seeing Jennifer Granholm blamed for Michigan's unemployment for that matter.

Mostly it's being done by the same people who say that government can't create jobs. If true, the reverse must also be true ... if government can't create jobs, it also can't create unemployment. All of it is being done by people smart enough to know better.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 15:29:20 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Setting all this aside for a minute (4.00 / 1)

In all earnestness, I have questions...

What do you and Brady expect to do should your candidate prevail on August 3?

Will you come before this blog and its membership and try to make amends? Or will you two follow Andy Dillon as he tacks even more to the right -- far beyond where he stands now -- and never post here again?

Is there some expectation in your circle that Democrats -- in particular those running for office who are actually PROUD of that party label -- will automatically embrace Andy Dillon as their party standardbearer?

Does Andy Dillon expect those organizations and officeholders that endorsed Virg Bernero to endorse him for November? Does he even WANT those endorsements? Maybe Andy thinks being endorsed by the MEA, the Black Slate, the Justice Caucus and the Sierra Club is a net negative...if so, I'd sure like to know that.

What expectation is there for Jocelyn Benson and David Leyton, who could really use a strong turnout by the Democratic base in November, to "fall in line" with Dillon's Republican-lite tendencies?

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by: helzapoppn @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 15:03:08 PM UTC

I feel sorry (4.00 / 1)

for Peters and other down ticket Dems who will reap the whirlwind of an Andy Dillon led ticket in November.

I fully expect to lose the state House if he's at the top...which is just what we need going into redistricting.

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by: Nazgul35 @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 16:16:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I've been banging the redistrcting drum for a solid year (0.00 / 0)

There are so many nightmare scenarios if the Republicans control this cycle like they did back in 2001.

The current 8-7 Democratic majority in the House could easily become 5-9 after 2012 (or 5-8 if we lose two seats).

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by: helzapoppn @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 17:58:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Malik Shabazz (0.00 / 0)

Those Bernero endorsements include Minister Malik Shabazz of the new Black Panther Party.  Shabazz is listed as the head of the Detroit Chapter of the Black Panthers, which is listed a hate group by the anti-defimation league and the Southern Poverty Law Center.  Shabazz is a strong supporter of the segregation of all races.  While I can't speak for the Dillon campaign, I would hope he would decline that one.

You ask some fine questions and I'll do my best to answer them later.  

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by: Brady @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 16:28:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Stupid (4.00 / 1)

Why is it impossible for you to make a cogent argument? Why always with meaningless stuff like this?

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 16:51:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Meaningless? (0.00 / 0)

Accepting the endorsement of someone that has praised the actions of Osama Bin Laden and advocated killing white police officers is "meaningless"??

If nothing else, it shows either bad judgment or careless campaigning.

Here's his entry on the Anti-Defamation League's website:
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_u...

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by: MSURyanJ @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 18:00:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Stupid, pt. 2 (4.00 / 3)

This is one of those things that no one cares about except people so deeply connected to one campaign or another that they fail to see the forest for the trees, or media people prone to being easily duped into things that don't matter.

This is the 2010 Michigan Democratic version of yelling about Ward Churchill. No one cares, except for the people doing the yelling about it. It's not a campaign issue of any substance, and represents nothing more than a meaningless diversion from them.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 18:03:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Detroit endorsements (0.00 / 0)

Dillon is endorsed by Buzz Thomas, Charles Pugh and Dennis Archer.  Bernero counters with Kwame's mom, Monica's husband and the head of a ADL & SPLC designated hate group.  A cognent argument shouldn't be necessary to explain why these endorsements are meaningful.

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by: Brady @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 18:13:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Stupid, pt. 3 (4.00 / 2)

F minus for continued attempts to make Malik Shabazz's endorsement a campaign issue.  Does his endorsement raise as a legitimate issue the question of whether Virg Bernero has endorsed his political agenda? If not, it's a non-issue that you're continuing to push.

And, yes, since most of us have agreed that an "endorsement" is largely meaningless by itself (we went through this since you were pretending that an endorsement by Buzz Thomas was the same thing as an endorsement by all of Detroit), why these things matter does require a cogent explanation ... which you haven't done.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 18:19:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Which is the hate group: NOW or the UAW? (4.00 / 2)

I mean, hell hath no fury like autoworkers endorsing someone who actually fights for them.

Or maybe it's the Michigan Nurses Association?

Yeah, I think the nurses hated me when I was younger. Those shots were a pain in my arm. I have never forgiven them for that!

(/sarcasm)

Great Lakes, Great Times, Great Scott

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by: ScottyUrb @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 18:24:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Brady (4.00 / 4)

Brady, are you pulling a Jeremiah Wright? I'm shocked and appalled at your behavior. Please explain if I'm misinterpreting your actions and words as deliberate race-baiting? Are we now going to go through all the white endorsements received by candidates to see how many endorsees are or ever were a member of an exclusive, whites-only club?

Michigan's problems are way more serious than this. And I have just lost all respect for you.

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.

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by: yvette248 @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 18:31:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Race baiting (0.00 / 0)

Yvette, I guarantee you that if Bernero or Dillon were to accept and publish the endorsement of a white or Latino advocating racial segregation through violent means, my reaction would be the same.  It's not Malik Shabazz's race that's the issue, it's what he stands for.  It's way beyond anything Jeremiah Wright advocated.

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by: Brady @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 19:09:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Unconvinced (4.00 / 1)

The fact that every last single person you chose to focus on as an endorser of Bernero's was a black person, belies your protestations of innocence. I'm unconvinced, but as I am not inclined to turn this thread into a debate on race, will give you a pass on the issue.

People - regardless of how wacko they are - are free to 'endorse' whomever they please. That does not mean that you ascribe to their views... as you very well know. This petty, small-minded, argument is way beneath you. Or at least the person whom I thought I knew. I would like to offer a suggestion that you consider changing tactics. You're doing more to hurt your own reputation than to help the person that you are campaigning for.

My $0.02

Nothing is easier than solving a problem on the back of the poor. People who don't have lobbyists or clout.

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by: yvette248 @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 19:25:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yvette, dear... (0.00 / 0)

Every single person mentioned as endorsing Dillon above is also a black person.  You're right that Malik Shabazz is free to endorse whoever he wants.  If the Bernero campaign were to ignore it, few would know about it.  But instead, they're publicizing it.  If Leon Drolet were to come on MichLib and endorse Bernero due to Bernero's commitment not to raise taxes as governor, we'd be laughing about it.  If Bernero were to announce the endorsement in a press release, it would be a whole different matter.  And calling attention to Drolet's hypothetical endorsment of Bernero would be no more gay-bashing than calling attention to the Shabazz endorsement is race-baiting.  Publishing the Shabazz endorsement is a major blunder by the Bernero campaign on par with accepting Moroun's money and then opposing DRIC.

On a lighter note, I suspect your $0.02 about protecting my reputation here is two cents too generous and two years too late.  ;)

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by: Brady @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 20:02:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Leon (0.00 / 0)

Brady, nice Leon Drolet example. I'm not convinced you're not the same person. Many, many things in common, after all.

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by: Michigan Awesome @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 20:42:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Dumb... (0.00 / 0)

Publishing the Shabazz endorsement is a major blunder by the Bernero campaign on par with accepting Moroun's money and then opposing DRIC.

You wouldn't know a real campaign blunder if it stood up and slapped you in the face.

No normal human cares about these things. The only people who do are people who are so wrapped up in Beltway-style politics that they have no lives beyond it.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 03:31:50 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

... (4.00 / 2)

Yvette, I guarantee you that if Bernero or Dillon were to accept and publish the endorsement of a white or Latino advocating racial segregation through violent means, my reaction would be the same.

Oh, I'm sure it would be.

You realize that the Republicans tried this back in 2008 with Obama, and no one cared. Now, you've got someone who even fewer people have heard of and who even fewer people are going to care about, and you appear to believe that the trick to making it work this time is by banging your shoe on the microphone and shrieking, "This is even worse!"

I don't know if I've said this lately, but when you press arguments like that, I take the guy you support even less seriously. That means that your advocacy is even worse than ineffective. It means that your advocacy is counterproductive.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 03:36:15 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

So it's like that? (4.00 / 4)

With all the work that John Conyers has done for Michigan and America, you're just going to dismiss him as "Monica's husband"?

That's pretty low, Brady.

Dennis Archer did a great job as mayor of Detroit.  I wouldn't be so dismissive of him just because he endorsed the guy I don't like.

Neither should you.

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by: djtyg @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 02:25:53 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh, snap! (4.00 / 1)

From tonight's MIRS:

Another endorsement the Bernero camp rolled out this weekend was that of Malik SHABAZZ, of the New Marcus Garvey Movement/Black Panther Nation. The campaign notes that Shabazz is a Detroit community activist -- and not to be confused with the controversial New National Black Panther Party President Malik Zulu SHABAZZ who has made a number of controversial remarks.

What say you, Brady? I guess all black leaders look the same to you, eh?

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by: Michigan Awesome @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 01:14:24 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Malik Shabazz (1.00 / 1)

My comments were in reference to Malik Shabazz of the New Marcus Garvey Movement/Black Panther Nation of Detroit, the same Malik Shabazz that endorsed Bernero.  See this link:  http://www.metrotimes.com/edit...

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by: Brady @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 01:58:30 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Continued F minuses for continuted pretenses that this means anything (0.00 / 0)

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 03:28:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Earnest Answers (4.00 / 1)

I appreciate your early consideration of a Dillon victory on August 3 although given the large number of undecided voters, the race is far from settled in my opinion.

If Dillon wins on August 3, you won't see any gloating from me.  If Dillon prevails, I wouldn't expect all Bernero supporters to automatically embrace Dillon.  But I suspect that most Democrats will eventually vote for the candidate Democratic voters pick as the party's nominee.

Keep in mind that liberals/progressives are the largest ideological bloc in the Democratic Party, but they're still a minority at 40%.  The remaining 60% are centrists, Blue Dog conservatives, libertarians and a lot of people like me whose views are all across the board depending on the issue.  The Democratic Party is a very diverse political party.  In my opinion, Andy Dillon is far better positioned to represent the diversity of the party and attract independent voters than Bernero.

Jocelyn Benson and David Leyton need to run on their own merits rather than "fall in line" with Dillon.  Our candidates, both at the top of the ticket and in legislative districts should represent the ideological diversity of the Democratic Party rather than agree with each other on most issues.  People who speak of falling in line, Democratic values or the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party are rejecting the political diversity of the Democratic Party rather than embracing it.  Likewise, a Dillon victory isn't a victory for centrists but instead an indication that Democratic voters chose not to go down the same limiting path of ideological purity that conservatives have done to the Republican Party.

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by: Brady @ Mon Jul 12, 2010 at 23:43:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Good luck (0.00 / 0)

winning with 30% of the vote.

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by: Nazgul35 @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 01:18:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Percentages (0.00 / 0)

And based on your same assumptions, good luck winning with 19% or less depending on the size of the independent segment this November.

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by: Brady @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 02:01:36 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I guarantee you (0.00 / 0)

there will be more enthusiasm amongst Dems with Virg at the top of the ticket as opposed to Mike Bishop's sock puppet...

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by: Nazgul35 @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 20:12:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Continued awful with a chance of banal (0.00 / 0)

Jocelyn Benson and David Leyton need to run on their own merits rather than "fall in line" with Dillon.  ...

Your weird fantasies about how things work aside, I doubt very much that Jocelyn Benson and David Leyton are sitting around, just hoping that Andy Dillon can bring coattails to the race that'll sweep them into office without the need for campaigning.  The problem is that having a lackluster candidate at the top of the ticket is a substantial drag on their campaigns, as well as the campaigns of everyone down ticket.

Normal people recognize that. Abnormal people insist that it's no big deal.  Also, you're the king of "people should fall in line with the winner" argumentation. You perfected it two years ago when you kept insisting that everyone get behind Hillary Clinton on the grounds that her nomination was inevitable.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 12:13:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

One thing we can be certain of (0.00 / 0)

is that the Blue Dog/DLC wing of the party are the George Castansa's of Democratic politics. You can be almost assured that the opposite of what they believe is the case is actually true...

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by: Nazgul35 @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 20:13:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I appreciate the effort (0.00 / 0)

I was wondering if the heated back-and-forth had pushed this to the back burner.

My concern is that you and MSURyanJ offer far more passion and combativeness than your candidate. If Andy Dillon had half the gumption you've shown here at MichLib, I'd be a lot less worried about him as the nominee.

This election cycle is being dominated by emotions and anger. A "cool centrist technocrat who can work across the aisle" (as Andy Dillon presents himself) is going to be curb-stomped by the Tea Partiers and the angry independents who (mistakenly) think Obama hasn't delivered for them and who believe the incessant hype that Michigan's problems are all Granholm's fault (and not the four years of stonewalling by Mike Bishop and his Gang of 21 in the Senate, or the tendency by your candidate to give in to Senate demands).

Virg can bridge that gap, matching the emotions and anger coming in from the right and energizing the Dem base. If Bernero brings the base to the polls, then our downballot candidates can win with them plus the independents that look at races on their own merits and split their tickets accordingly.

Conversely, if any portion of the Dem base sits on their hands because of a Dillon win, that will greatly affect the ground game and GOTV effort. Which will translate to fewer Democratic voters. Even if the drop is a mere 5% or so statewide, all our downballot candidates suffer.

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by: helzapoppn @ Wed Jul 14, 2010 at 14:27:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Honestly disagree (0.00 / 0)

I respectfully disagree with you that the best way to beat the Tea Party this year is to match their anger.  I also respectfully disagree that the best way to beat Republicans is to follow their lead of eliminating moderates from the party.  I like Virg Bernero's passion and have supported him in the past in his elections as Lansing's mayor.  But I don't believe that Virg will be able to win centrist Democrats, conservative Democrats and independents except for the few party hacks like me who always vote Democratic at the top of the ticket.  In my view, voting for Virg is accepting defeat this year with the comfort of the Democratic Party not having to adjust to the new economic realities that face Michigan.

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by: Brady @ Wed Jul 14, 2010 at 16:58:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't want civility. (4.00 / 3)

I want balls.

Virg has them.

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by: djtyg @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 02:21:37 AM UTC

Dillon (4.00 / 1)

just reminds me of Lieberman with nicer hair...meh!

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by: Nazgul35 @ Tue Jul 13, 2010 at 20:14:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Festive. (4.00 / 1)

At the winter holiday time, Virg has four large red balls at the intersection of Michigan Avenue and Washington Square.  I'm just saying...

Virg - 4 BIG RED BALLS

Andy - 0 balls

I'm sure my dear Brady will find this to be a clear sign that Dillon is the superior candidate.

Do stupid people know they are stupid?

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by: JPowers155 @ Wed Jul 14, 2010 at 14:09:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]