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Johnson calls for wholesale change in Michigan Democratic Party

by: Eric B.

Wed Feb 06, 2013 at 13:40:15 PM EST

The path to victory at the state level is a strategy of addition, said Lon Johnson, candidate for chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party. That means bringing new tools and technology, and it can only be accomplished through wholesale change to the party.

Part of that is hiring a professional staff, including an executive director to oversee the day-to-day operations, permanently rather than just a few months before an election, he said in a conference call with reporters this afternoon. It also means doing a better job of recruiting people early in a campaign cycle rather than the year of the election. The MDP should be recruiting candidates right now rather than waiting for 2014, he said.

The MDP must also become a standalone organization, he said, and has to do a better job of reaching out to people who contribute to Democratic causes in election years for funds. Advancement of those causes requires a strong and stable state party.

Johnson dodged a question about who was to blame for Proposal 2's failure last year, saying that he is focused on looking forward, but not so far forward that he dodged another question asking whether he planned another run for office after 2014.

Eric B. :: Johnson calls for wholesale change in Michigan Democratic Party
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Wholesale Change
Except for incumbents, it seems that every campaign has to re-invent the wheel and find its own help.

Besides the comedy that are joint printing efforts, the party needs to develop a team of outside professionals that will assist campaigns in election finance reports, graphics, campaign managers, copy writers, communications, web designers (no, hyper-pricey NGP does NOT count) and professional training on VAN.

The party could also help vet some of the existing consultants. Some are just creepy.

Except for MAYBE for VAN, Michigan Democrats have been campaigning the same way for decades. (But, we really didn't need VAN in Michigan because we had Grebner, who offered a better product for years).

There is a team that assist candidates. How do you think they all get lit and mail designed and out? Outside of super safe seats and no chance seats they all get help and majority do not choose to hire consultants to do the work and take the help which is offered. To say otherwise is non-sense and would ignore the existence of the staff that do all of these things.

We need the Van, there is not a replacement for that and getting rid of it would throw the mdp into the stone age. Votecast is not a replacement for the Van, I would replace my Google Chrome with IE (although I have heard the new IE is supposedly good) before I would do that. I personally don't subscribe to the cult of Grebner. I think the targeting data is good but I have used plenty of others and to say it is some kind of incredible gold standard and all the rest are crap I don't buy by a long shot.

[ Parent ]
No need to replace VAN.
VAN is really just an interface, like Votecast.  It's not closely linked to the underlying data, which can be from any source.

I won't argue about data quality here, but if PPC were asked to combine our data with the data assembled by the MDP over the years, I think the change in accuracy would be apparent to everybody.  You'd still maintain your campaign's file using the VAN.

[ Parent ]
I'd support a cleaner qvf file but I would wonder if there is more to it then the MDP just didn't like what you were saying or offering so much that they haven't even bit in 6 years.  

[ Parent ]
Having work with both VAN (as the administrator of VAN for the House Caucus) and with PPC's list (before, during and after my time at the House), I can tell you that the PPC list is much, much better.

A basic problem with the data in VAN is there is no one doing quality control like there is for PPCs data.  In VAN, I can point to several House campaigns from past years where the candidate support information is not believable.  In addition I tried to point out a problem with bar code scanning which introduces data errors (data is attributed to the wrong people).  The problem was dismissed by VAN as a problem with the scanners and not the system--there is a simple change to the system which would have avoided the problem.

PPC also provides useful measures of the probability of someone voting in a given type of election and their partisanship.  When I was at the House, the equivalent calculations provided to us through VAN were not as good.  This was measurable by constructing district democratic bases using the information provided by PPC and VAN.  The bases constructed from PPC data was much closer to the known bases of the districts than similar bases constructed from VAN data.

It is factors like these which have lead both the House and Senate caucuses to use continue to use data from PPC.

[ Parent ]
This is an extremely valuable comment about something
I have been wondering about. I have had no opportunity to make a similar test, and very much appreciate your sharing your conclusions. Thank you.

[ Parent ]
conflict of interest
while i don't disagree with your assertion you should disclose your conflicts of interests both personal and professional.

[ Parent ]
I was thinking his connections should be clarified
DFox has worked for PPC and also for the legislative caucuses at various times.  He has a lot of experience both the PPC's file and the VAN, and has very strong opinions, which he and I have discussed many times.

At the risk of stepping on toes (and there are hundreds of exposed toes) it's a good idea to admit that his opinions are consistent with his way of making a living.  

[ Parent ]
Here's What the Staff Does
Straight from MichiganDems.com:

(1) One Director of field,
(2-3) Two are field coordinators,
(4) One is chair's personal assistant,
(5) One maintains the MDP database,
(6) One is the bingo hall manager,
(7) One does communications,
(8) One is a receptionist,
(9) One is the HR and compliance staffer,
(10)One is a fundraiser,
(11)One is the political director for the MDP and
(12)One is the VAN data person. That's it.

The staffers are all good people and dedicated, but there is no "team" assistance other than for the five or so marginal seat candidates. A practice that has pissed-off hundreds of other candidates, elected officials and can be a tremendous waste of resources - unless someone has calculated the potential return on investment. Some of those so-called marginals are simply FOB's.

But, even "safe seat" and "no chance" candidates could use help, too. Establishing a clearing house for services would save ... money. For everybody. Money that could be used to win seats.  

Re-read my last sentence; the object of the comment was the habits of Democratic electioneers, not VAN.

[ Parent ]
I am not sure what to say. You should talk to someone that has managed house or senate races whether there is a team that provides them the help you outlined. I find it hard to believe that the services you described could be provided to all 110 house, 38 senate and 14 congressional candidates. That would not produce a bench it would produce debt and the quality of everything would suffer.

Do you know how many candidates had lit printed through them all the way down to county commission? It HAS saved millions of dollars. Call Keystone and Lawson and ask them how much work the mdp sends them it is insane.

[ Parent ]
The Candidates Already Get All Those Services

But most of them waste time and money trying to figure it out, hence the term, "clearinghouse."

No one is talking about having the party pay for it all.

[ Parent ]
Ok so we are on the same page, candidates already have these services at there disposal but your gripe is there isn't a consultant to walk them through every step? Like the email which explained what is provided and how to enroll is not enough... The MDP does not need to find someone to walk every single candidate through baby steps, candidates need to have campaign managers competent enough to read an email from the MDP and figure out how to submit some head shots. It's not hard.

But no I was not talking about someone else paying or anything.

[ Parent ]
yea this is a problem
A lot of candidates don't have good Staff most of the time it ends up being family members or they can't pay people, this should actually probably fall to the Local Parties, but again their in shambles.

[ Parent ]
Nothing drives me more crazy then campaigns that think they are saving money by not hiring or having shit staff. It is not hard to scrounge up $5k and find a campaign manager that has half a clue what to do. Besides anyone good manager that is worth there weight is going to be able to fundraiser enough to at least pay themselves.

I've never really had a problem getting lit or mail done outside of some normal things that would delay it no more then 48 hours. It is pretty straight forward, if someone has a issues doing that then they might have much bigger problems.

[ Parent ]
i think those problems were no having staff.

[ Parent ]
where do you get this?
a campaign manager for $5k? That'll get you 2 months if you're lucky.

[ Parent ]
a campaign manager for $5k? That'll get you 2 months if you're lucky.

Agree with this

[ Parent ]
Not $5k to pay them the whole cycle but $5k in the bank to get things rolling. Side note I wish there was a union for campaign staff.

[ Parent ]
Not $5k to pay them the whole cycle but $5k in the bank to get things rolling. Side note I wish there was a union for campaign staff.

Word dog Word

[ Parent ]
You Were
That would not produce a bench it would produce debt and the quality of everything would suffer.


But no I was not talking about someone else paying or anything.

[ Parent ]
Yes. Having staff try to provide services to 110 house, 38 senate and 14 congressional candidates would cause an increase in expensive. Not because they are paying for the printing but because a staffer now has triple the work. It would be more then a full time job, so they would have to hire someone else or that person would just do there job worse.

[ Parent ]
The Candidates Already Get All Those Services.

But most of them waste time and money trying to figure it out, hence the term, "clearinghouse."

No one is talking about having the party do all the work.  

[ Parent ]
You're really out there man.

You want the MDP to provide a "clearing house" not services, because we both agree they already get that, but of someone to hold there hand from Lansing for nearly everything to run a campaign to every single candidate but you are not talking about the party doing the work or having to pay any more to provide it.

Like I said above campaigns need staff. Trying to somehow shift what is a campaign staffers job to the MDP is a recipe for disaster. Why would you outsource that away from the district where you know the voters live.

[ Parent ]
I know you don't understand don't worry.

[ Parent ]
Remember at the State Level we have to organization running parallel the MDP, and JLC.

[ Parent ]
Maybe A Concrete Example Will Help
Why have 110 candidates use 110 different people to file campaign finance reports?

Why not have the MDP vet a handful of firms that could do the service?

[ Parent ]
I agree
Problem's I see though are the candidates, baring a few can't raise any money, at least this cycle.

and what has been happening is either the Local Party say they will help or you get told to call Jody at the MDP

[ Parent ]
Are you for real?
Honestly. Do you know how the MDP and the caucuses work or how a campaign runs? Have you filed a CFR before? I can think of about a million reasons why the MDP should not be submitting or for whatever reason hiring firms to submit all 110 cfr's.

If a candidate or campaign can not figure out how to follow and comply with campaign finance law maybe they shouldn't be running. After all these people are being elected to run the government.

[ Parent ]
case in point, Chuck Stadler, in the 10th still haven't see a report for last year filed

[ Parent ]
Who Said Any of That?
Quote them. Help me out here.

[ Parent ]
To Vet:
Make a careful and critical examination of (something).

[ Parent ]
The Party
Make a careful and critical examination of (something).

The party doesn't really vet, it just lets the cards fall were they pay, and then comes in for the general, were they think there is a chance to win, kinda of a dumb stratgey

[ Parent ]
But I'm not talking candidates. Brewer and the party cannot "officially" get involved until the candidate receives the Democratic nomination.  But that's never been the case in real life.

[ Parent ]
not worth it
I am sorry it is not possible to have a rational thing here. You're right I used the word hire and not vet on accident, congrats on that.

Ask Lon if he would instituted a system that would do this thing of basically having the MDP run every campaign or providing in addition to the services already offered a "clearing house" of people who would do things like file CFRs and stuff. I bet he stares blankly at you.

[ Parent ]
Didn't Say That Either
... this thing of basically having the MDP run every campaign ... (BlueBoxer)

Yet, somehow joint printing services sponsored by the MDP are no problem:

Do you know how many candidates had lit printed through them all the way down to county commission? It HAS saved millions of dollars. Call Keystone and Lawson and ask them how much work the mdp sends them it is insane. (BlueBoxer)

[ Parent ]
We really don't have to go back and forth but yes submitting a 148 CFR would be impossible and is far different then print runs. I'd say the biggest difference is printing has economies of scales and CFR work doesn't. Plus I do not think there would be enough time on a filling day to even submit 148 of them.

Someone would have to pay me a fortune to do that. It would be a nightmare of enormous proportion especially if you do not have the candidate and there checkbox or all to often crumpled up zip lock of receipts physically there next to you. I have seen CFRs make grown men cry.  

[ Parent ]
Nothing was said about the MDP filing 148 CFR's. Just like no one asks the MDP to buy Heidelbergs to print campaign material. The work would go to firms or individuals who could set their own fees.

If a candidate cannot comply with the CFA they don't belong in the race.

[ Parent ]
I have never heard of firms that take over compliance and CFR reporting for House and Senate campaigns. I am sure you could find someone out there that would take your money for it but it is certainly not a thing people do and it is not something campaigns should do.

[ Parent ]
Round 24
Google: "CPA 'Campaign Finance Compliance'"

[ Parent ]
... but it is certainly not a thing people do and it is not something campaigns should do.

Its something I've seen in quite a few campaigns.

[ Parent ]
You have seen campaigns outsource there campaign compliance work? I personally have never seen that but maybe you have. I am not talking about someone just having NGP and I am pretty sure you are not also.

I have submitted many of CFRs they are usually complicated and you really do need to lock yourself in the office and go over ever bit before submitting it. I feel like if you took that from the campaign office and sent it to some place in Lansing it would not work well. You need to be able to talk to the candidate constantly and go over copies of receipts for hours. I just see major logistical problems in doing it and I really do not think it is a pressing thing to "fix" nor would it really make campaigns better. Most the no chances in hell seats that probably could use the help do not raise or spend over 1k so they don't even need to file a cfr and the rest of them that raise money have a staff to do this type of thing.

[ Parent ]
Just check the FEC site for the Federal campaigns in Michigan and see how many CPAs and accountants do the task.

CFR work for a campaign means less campaigning, go ahead lock yourself in the room, filing CFRs does nothing to get to another voter.

[ Parent ]
ut most of them waste time and money trying to figure it out, hence the term, "clearinghouse."

Kevin Hirt had/was doing this at least during the primaries and was all said and done it was costing .10 a piece, come the general, DEMCOM, was making a lot of the House Candidate go through them, and charging about double, plus candidate couldn't get orders until they were approved, Language of the peice and all, I ran into a number of candidate very angry about the price and the run around.

[ Parent ]
House & Senate Caucus responsibility
Both caucus operations hold pretty firmly to the idea that candidate support, as described above, is their's (and their's alone) to provide.  They get rather territorial about it.  Expecting this of the MDP is short-sighted and unreasonable.

"Action is what separates a belief from an opinion."

[ Parent ]
Who Says
The caucuses or the staff? Considering that the elected ones leave every two to fours years its the staff that works to find accommodating bosses.

[ Parent ]
The elected ones can be there for 6 or 8 years. And the staff does what their bosses (the elected ones) tell them to do. And during an election year they try to do what both their current bosses, and their potential future bosses want.

The bottom line is that the party doesn't run the legislative races.  

[ Parent ]
With Term Limits
A large minority leave every two to four years. Actually.

[ Parent ]
Only 3 Dem Senators
of 12 will be leaving next cycle. And Greimel will lead the House Caucus for the next 6 years. So the caucus staff work for their Caucus.

But my point is that it's not the MDP who recruit House and Senate candidates, it's the Caucuses.  

[ Parent ]
Or ...
Twenty-five percent. A large minority. And four years later?

[ Parent ]
Term limits has forced the elected officials to rely more and more on staff, the bureaucrats, simply because the institutional knowledge with elected officials is now more limited.

Staff then has too much influence over vetting candidates for the caucus, picking candidates they like, but not necessarily positioned to win.

[ Parent ]
there are only field coordinators, Kristopher Banks and Thomas Collins
and your forgetting JLC, and DEMCOM

and MDP did try to setup Print & Lit service that would save money, DEMCOM shut it down, and made the candidate use their services which was twice as expensive as what Kevin had put together at MDP

[ Parent ]
there are only field coordinators

meant to only two

[ Parent ]
Bad Staff
The party has hired terrible staff over the years.  Most of them have horrible personal skills and some have been there longer then they should.  

[ Parent ]
could you be
need to be a bit more specific, sense there MDP, JLC, and DEMCOM

[ Parent ]
wow double post, how'd that happen

[ Parent ]
could you be
need to be a bit more specific, sense there MDP, JLC, and DEMCOM

[ Parent ]
Respectfully disagree
Based on your comment about the MDP staff, you know nothing about them, or the many who have come before them.  In other words, your knowledge of them is limited and faulty at best.  They are quite talented and many have gone on to other positions within the political arena.  Overall, over the years, a very good crew of committed and passionate staff.

"Action is what separates a belief from an opinion."

[ Parent ]
Wouldn't it be nice if VAN=Grebner?
For the past six years, PPC has proposed to the MDP that we would take over maintaining the file that went into the VAN, cleaning it up, removing duplicates, assessing the value of campaign IDs, and so on.  It wouldn't cost more than they've been spending, and it wouldn't change the VAN interface.  To users, the only apparent difference would be an improvement in the accuracy of the data.

We've never gotten so much as a return phone call.  No exploration of how it would work, no desire to clarify our proposal, no willingness to negotiate or compromise or even think about it.  Silence.

And that's why Michigan Dems work with a so-so voter file, while PPC is forced to accept business wherever we can find it - even on the other side of the street.

[ Parent ]
Didn't the Caucuses and MDP pay you a heft sum for your data in 2010?

[ Parent ]
Not the MDP.
Because of the hostility of the MDP, we have to reach individual deals with various pieces of the Democratic ticket, including the legislative caucuses and a bunch of candidates elsewhere on the ticket.

I suppose you could say the MDP cooperated, by not making it completely impossible for our clients to integrate our data with the rest of the VAN.  But unless a campaign happened to be covered by one of our side-agreements, they got no access to our data.

I hope I'm not violating any of PPC's nondisclosure agreements by saying this much. I think all of our purchasers were required to list our fee in the Campaign Finance Reports, so this should all be public anyway.

[ Parent ]
It also means doing a better job of recruiting people early in a campaign cycle rather than the year of the election. The MDP should be recruiting candidates right now rather than waiting for 2014, he said.

Where would this people come from? is he serious? This is ignoring the facts on the ground all together. many of the local parties are in shambles, anyone that would be a serious candidate doesn't want to run, baring a few.

We need Farm Teams, but we need to be building from the ground up at the lowest level, that is how bad it has gotten. dictating from the top down isn't going to work, especially when he just wants to be a "Figurehead" again why would we be paying this guy 140k-160k?

he dodged another question asking whether he planned another run for office after 2014.

Are you joking!! he isn't even planning on staying around, this is sounding more and more like he just wants a paycheck and a title for his resume.

That's why I find the whole thing strange.

He runs Dingell's race in '02 and wins and works some other political jobs mostly out of the state. He then gets hooked up with a great job that probably paid really well with National Democratic Institute (which is funded by the feds). Leaves job at NDI in '06 moves back to Michigan and seemingly is not involved. Becomes a VP at a private equity firm and runs for house but loses and now he wants to be the chair...

I get why he would want the $160k because he probably is use to making much more but if he wanted to be the chair and he really was concerned about the future of the MDP why the hell did he wait to get involved now and at the level of chair? Hell he wasn't concerned enough about the dems to even vote in 2010.

When did he become so concerned with the MDP was it when Bob King called him and offered him the job?

[ Parent ]
Question, upon Questions
see these are my exact problem, Mark isn't perfect, but if all we are going to get to replace him is another UAW puppet I'd rather have Mark when his not shackled to the UAW, which would be what happen if he wins this, as of now.

given the letter from the Congressional members is very much a vote of no convince, so that a stick bit.

[ Parent ]
He Will be Free!
... of money from the UAW! LOL!

[ Parent ]
Not a bad thing necessarily. It is not like the UAW shows up with a big check and says good luck.

[ Parent ]
I think Brewer sans UAW would kick ass. Lon with the UAW (that he apparently won't be standing up against if he couldn't even answer the question about prop2 on the conference call) and a two year commitment before he might bail to run again, not kick ass.

Was he going to get involved to help the MDP if he was not running for chair? Was he even planning on going to the convention if Bob King did not call him? he did not in 2010.

[ Parent ]
Sans UAW
Do you think if Brewer gets back in, the UAW won't have a say in what goes on?  They know how to play the game.

[ Parent ]
No. I think they would still be involved but they certainly would not be calling the shot after calling for Brewers head.

[ Parent ]
Do you know if county party meeting minutes are online anywhere? I am guessing the answer is No but I would really like to know if Lon should up for the Kalkaska County Dems Convention meeting to pick there chair after the '12 election.

[ Parent ]
Depends on the County
For example, the Oakland County Dems are fairly advanced, but for smaller counties it would depend on whether anyone happened to be web-savvy enough (along with the time and permissions) to post minutes.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

[ Parent ]
As for party trainings in campaign skills,
has anyone considered hooking up with DFA (Democracy for America, founded by former DNC Chair Howard Dean)?  They conduct excellent trainings all over the country (and at Netroots Nation) and charge reasonable prices to participants.  I attended one of their trainings in Jackson a few years ago.

Tapping DFA as a resource is something the MDP should consider
But such a decision would have to be made by the Chairman, since it would involve spending money and coordinating with local/county/district organizations to send people to DFA-sponsored training.

To the extent that it's a hassle or intrudes on training the MDP wants to run internally...well, again that's where an active Chairman (or an Executive Director reporting to the Chairman) should be able to make an assessment, come to a decision and make sure it's implemented.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

[ Parent ]
Democrats are getting their behinds handed to them.
Granholm had Bishop so at best we had stalemate even back then.  Blanchard is probably the last time Democrats had any power.  

 I am glad Brewer has a challenge and I hope he loses.  WI and OH Democrats have more power than Michigan.   As far as "dirty politics" go, what's new.  Amidst voter suppression, gerrymandered districts, and campaigns that are complete lies, what's a few phony candidates?  Somebody tell me how Snyder got away with "refusing to debate".   Not even one.    

Let's not forget
the incompetence of UAW International still has some influence over whoever the next boss is.  Let's face it, we need more Andy Dillon's in the Party or we can keep loosing with the UAW.  As much as some of these commentators on Mich LIB bitch and complain about John Gleason,  believe it or not he is a true reflection of the UAW rank and file membership and those members know about the years of corruption with in UAW International.

The UAW International is filled with incompetent people from the Regional CAP Coordinators to appointed positions on the shop floor.  Hundreds of family members swell the bureaucratic UAW establishment.  Elected members from Local Presidents to Shop Committee persons spend a good amount of time hob knobbing their Regional Director for a shot at a International appointment so they don't ever have to touch another car part while ignoring the issues of their membership to please International.

This is why RTW passed, workers see the UAW as an exclusive club that is only interested in justifying its own existence with Lansing or DC instead of those who work on the shop floor...where it all started.  

Whine and cry about Gleason when, in fact, he gave some of the most impassioned speeches about labor, hard work and collective bargaining during the RTW fight. Does it annoy me when Dems vote for anti-choice and pro-gun initiatives? Sure. But Gleason is an outspoken and compassionate individual when it comes to the rights of the poor and middle class. For all the bitching about Gleason, you'd think he was the only Dem in the Senate who is pro-life and anti-choice... I'll let you figure out who else is!

[ Parent ]
RTW passed because Republicans wanted to hamstring and de-fund ALL unions
Now, outdated impressions and false perceptions of unions amplified by millions in negative ads -- broad-brush attacks like the "UAW as an exclusive club" or the "MEA protects lazy, drunken teachers" memes -- did contribute to the defeat of Proposal 2.

But, aside from that, please go on about how "we need more Andy Dillons."

Outsized union influence on the MDP is one thing -- I agree with changing the balance of power to make us more democratic Democrats.

But ceding control to DINOs? That'd be a Dick [Morris] move.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

[ Parent ]
At least
Dillon could raise funds from out side of Labor...continue with your DINO rant and see yourself on the loosing side for another ten years.

You must work for or did work for the MDP

[ Parent ]
Hell no...just a local activist who reads a lot and has opinions
And one such opinion is that Andy Dillon was a poison pill "Third Way" corporatist far too chummy with the likes of Mike Bishop -- and perhaps the least competent House Speaker of the modern era.

And that was BEFORE he joined the Snyder Administration.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

[ Parent ]
Did you work on the Obama Campaign, DemRenegade?

[ Parent ]
If third way
means getting away from the cheap vs. union wages for manufacturing jobs debate...then yes.  RTW wasn't about manufacturing unions, not many of them to even fight over.  The Unions ceded them a long time ago by implementing a tiered wage system which was encouraged by the Obama administration to get GM back on it's feet because it had to.  

RTW was about government employee's which has represented the only significant gain of organization for the UAW in recent times. That's how Bob King gained his notoriety within the UAW by organizing government employees...RTW was personal to him on many levels.

Does RTW seek to defund unions? Depends how the membership feels how they are being represented and we will see how that works out after contract negotiations.  UAW International has asked membership to take pay cuts in the past it will be interesting to see how the membership how they will react if more cuts are asked in light of RTW.

But again those members are a very small portion of voters and a good chunk vote republican.

Basically the Dem state party has very little to offer the majority of Michigan voters and it shows when districts are redrawn every ten years.

Dillon represented a different group that would like to be apart of the Dem party that offer good ideas but the UAW is intimidated by rival money therefore they feel more comfortable with Virg

When talking about corporatist "third way" the UAW International is a business itself you see, it cannot exist with out membership dues they have pretty much blended in with GM and Ford and act very much the same way...and yes they will have a significant amount of power within the Party Convention.

Meet the new boss same as the old boss. Lon still has to pay homage to those UAW Reps who cling to their titles as if they really matter.


[ Parent ]
"Third Way"
The "Third Way" Dillon and his ilk represented was anti-choice and anti-gay. Not to mention the deals he made with Bishop against Granholm every year when it came to the budget...

[ Parent ]
Do you
really think that's what this is about???? GET REAL!  

[ Parent ]
Getting Real
You're the one who characterized Dillon as being an advocate/leader for a "Third Way." But Dillon's third way wasn't just about rival money to the UAW. His attempts to take the center were also about pushing policies that were anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-public education (both K-12 and higher) or to not even bother to fight those kinds of policies.  

His "Third Way" was pretty much to sell out or ignore the progressive/liberal side of the Democratic party. In other words, ignoring the policies that keep states successful with a high quality of life.  

[ Parent ]
when has the liberal/progressive side of the Dem Party been ignored?

[ Parent ]
The two tiered wage
was agreed to long before Barack Obama was president. It was instituted at a time when there were no new hires, and had been none for ten years. Negotiators saw it as a concession that affected no one, and one that allowed them to avoid givebacks that would affect actual members.

[ Parent ]
the UAW is still burning from the Prop 2 fiasco...it was their idea, it failed, so it must be Brewer's fault.  Get the Dem congressional committee to agree and BOOM! Problem solved.    

It wasn't just the UAW
Proposal 2 seems a textbook example of the old saying, "Success has a thousand fathers; Failure is an orphan."

Trying to saddle the UAW with sole "paternity" for Proposal 2 is an attempt at retroactive continuity.

They may have taken a lead role at the outset, but there were plenty of non-UAW people who signed on -- other unions and non-union activists all collected signatures and lent support to the effort.

I had my misgivings, but came to the same conclusion that thousands of other Democrats reached -- the Legislature was already killing union rights and collective bargaining by increments with dozens of separate bills targeting teachers, state and municipal employees, etc., so this was a battle that had to be decided one way or the other.

Proposal 2 failed...but so did ALL SIX ballot proposals, including both of the ones supported and funded by Matty Moroun -- and, by happenstance, repealing Public Act 4 because of the way Proposal 1 was worded.

I believe RTW would have happened anyway, simply because Rick Snyder lacked the backbone to resist once passed by the Legislature. It might not have happened during the Inflamed Duck, and the version signed into law was more draconian, but eventually we would have had to deal with Michigan becoming an RTW state.

[How might Mark Brewer have done things differently? Not really sure, which may seem to contradict things I may have stated before, but whatever. Once the ball was rolling, even if Proposal 2 had been pulled off the ballot the GOP still would have taken it as an excuse to pass RTW.]

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

[ Parent ]
Bob King
Came up with it (or maybe someone else at the UAW did but it was his baby) and took it around and got all of the other unions involved. I remember some very loud dissenting opinions of whether the dam thing could ever pass but it was Bob King that continued barreling down the road. Maybe some people got in the car but it was Bob King who was driving it right off the cliff.

[ Parent ]
I think
I think the point your missing is whether the UAW was only to blame or whether others were, too, you could see why someone would be a bit skeptical of someone like Bob King leading the charge against Brewer.  You can't unlink the two in the Prop 2 fiasco.  That's the point.

[ Parent ]

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