Why I stopped subscribing to The Nation

As usual

On this issue, you're wrong. I'll let others with more patience explain why, again, if they care to!

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by: MIChange @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 16:04:51 PM UTC

Yes, I know. It's a conspiracy.

It's always a conspiracy.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 16:21:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh

You think the Wall Street bailout was a "conspiracy", too, then, and you ultimately support(ed) it?

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by: MIChange @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 16:24:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

They do have things in common

Short-sighted stupidity and the child-like belief that nothing bad will come of it. Also, that someone else is ultimately responsible for your own poor choices.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 16:42:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Please study

Go read the numerous blogs and articles and tv shows that mention / talk about this. The notion that the state is just a neutral actor working in the best interests of the citizens is ridiculous.

Also, my point about the bail outs was that the bail outs were done to protect Wall Street. Likewise, the Emergency Manager is being put in place to protect Wall Street... You, my friend, are on the side of the big banks on this one.  

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by: MIChange @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 17:53:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm on the side of Detroit's citizens, actually

They're the ones who have to pay with longer police response times, closed parks and darkened streets because Detroit's elected leadership is incompetent.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 18:08:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

If you

If you think that you can explain all of Detroit's poor services by "elected leadership incompetence", well, you might as well be a Republican.  And don't fool yourself into believing you are on the side of Detroiters.  They don't want this.  If you want to make a Daddy Knows Best paternalistic argument, that's your perogative, but you don't stand with Detroiters anymore than Snyder does.

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by: MiddleGrandGuy @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 00:46:15 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't believe that at all

Having covered municipal and school leadership over the years as a newspaper person, I feel qualified to tell you that the people who are making noise right now about paternalism and a state takeover don't represent the majority of Detroiters. The majority of Detroiters, who you'll never hear about because they have other things on their minds than the organization of city government, want public safety, parks, and street lights delivered competently. If Snyder's emergency manager can turn things around and show results in some decent time frame, no one is going to care.

I'm driven by the probability of results. I see the probability of a turnaround under Detroit's current leadership as zero. I'm somewhat less pessimistic about a state takeover because, well, 40 percent is still better odds than zero.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 03:33:32 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

your factual wrong

The majority of Detroiters, who you'll never hear about because they have other things on their minds than the organization of city government, want public safety, parks, and street lights delivered competently.

Your right they do want these things, along with feeling safe. What you fail to take into consideration is that a EM/EFM does not deliver this, thier job is to balance the budget, they are hand tied and not aloud to raise revenue, so they only way to do this is to sell off city assets, so they privatized everything, which means why yes those things will be available, the average Detroiter will never be able to afford them, after all private company have to worry about profits and only profits. Just like Eastern Europe, just like South America, Just like the countless instance of this happening within this country, privatizing public assets does noting ,but hurt the public. Let's remember what a private fire departments led too, and instances, in the south recently of similar activity has lead too.

I'm driven by the probability of results. I see the probability of a turnaround under Detroit's current leadership as zero. I'm somewhat less pessimistic about a state takeover because, well, 40 percent is still better odds than zero.

the probability of result under a EFM/EM is also Zero, as i pointed out the only entity to come out of a EFM/EM structure is Three Oaks, a small village that only came out of receivership recently, it could very well fall back in again, like ever other state entity has. What the EFM/EM does and will continue to do in this 3rd version, dismantlement of cities and services,can not lead to saving a city, you need to build them up and repair them. That is the only way, period, end of story, that they way it has work for thousand of years and will continue to work, this experiment of Michigan's has not work in the 20 years sense it original passage, beside the one instance of a small village in southwest Michigan.

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 05:30:47 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

you know what

Having covered municipal and school leadership over the years as a newspaper person, I feel qualified to tell you that the people who are making noise right now about paternalism and a state takeover don't represent the majority of Detroiters.

They are you Detroiters elected, if they don't like them there is this thing is this country call a election were they can throw the bums out. If the people fail to do this, that is on them, not the elected officials.

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." Winston Churchill, speech in the House of Commons (November 11, 1947); in Robert Rhodes James, ed., Winston S. Churchill: His Complete Speeches, 1897-1963 (1974), vol. 7, p. 7566.

These form of totalitarianism that has taken root here in Michigan, has to ripped out by the roots, and soon, before it spreads.

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 05:36:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

you=who

N/T

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 05:37:16 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

First you tell me that I'm "factually" wrong, then you tell me I'm right

What you pointed out is that under P.A. 72, very few local governments were successfully turned around. That's why they changed the law. The current law, the law currently being applied, has been on the books all of four months. You can't judge it's success -- well, I'm sure you will -- based on the failure of the law it was designed to replace.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 12:39:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Evidence?

Please, I'm asking - not ordering - you to show evidence of where an EM has worked elsewhere. And actually, were you to attend any church, block club or community/neighborhood organization in the City of Detroit, you'd find out that your analysis of Detroiters' opinions is woefully off base.

As a journalist, I'd have hoped that you actually went places and interviewed people before making assumptions. The fact that you did that, some time ago, does not qualify you to pontificate about the Detroit's citizens sentiments today on a topic that didn't exist back then.  

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 13:22:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Why do you think Detroit is any different than any other place?

First off, your question can't be answered because, again (how many more times do I need to point this out), the law authorizing emergency managers was passed in December and replaced a law first passed in 2010 but repealed by a vote of the people. That's the same thing as the governor taking credit for job creation from his tax shifts before they'd taken effect.

Second, this is what I said about what the majority of people living in Detroit want:

The majority of Detroiters, who you'll never hear about because they have other things on their minds than the organization of city government, want public safety, parks, and street lights delivered competently.

You think I'm off base for saying that? You think I need to go to a book club to learn that most people living in Detroit are more concerned with protecting people who've screwed things up than they are about competent garbage collection? On what planet do you live?

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:00:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Huh?

What you're pointing out is irrelevant. The emergency managers for DPS, assigned originally under 72 and subsequently under 4, Robert Bobb and Roy Roberts have both been utter failures. No room for opinion there, just the facts.

Yes you're way off base for saying that. I didn't say "book" club, I said "block" club. Had you ever ventured to the City to find out more about that which you preach, you'd know that a block club is equivalent to a neighborhood association or neighborhood watch, but is confined to a smaller geographic area.

So, again, if you've ever spoken to Detroit citizens, you'd know you're wrong about their opinions. And your paternalism of assuming you know what they "want" is indicative of why you support EMs.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:16:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Noted

That you did not answer the question, yet again. There is not one iota of evidence anywhere that shows taking over a city or school district, whether its an EM or EFM under PA 72 or PA 4, or any other manifestation, works. Because it doesn't and hasn't.  

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:20:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I did and continue to answer your question

You can't measure the success or failure of one law based on a law it was written to replace.  P.A. 72 didn't work, so they replaced it three years ago with P.A. 4, which was then repealed about four months ago and replaced with yet a different law.  You can't answer whether P.A. 4 failed because it is no longer the law and only existed for about two and a half years, which is too short a time to judge it on, especially given that what it was intended to do (turn around a city and its financial picture) is a big time frame thing.

How many times do I need to say this before you accept that it's an answer to your question?

As for your continued assertion that the people of Detroit favor self-rule by incompetent egoists over competent service delivery ... this would make Detroit an aberration. Not just in Michigan. Not just in the United States. Not just in the world as we know it. But, the world as we know it throughout human history.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:49:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're avoiding

the question by claiming it was not around long enough.

If PA 4 was around for 2.5 years. And Gov. Snyder says the Detroit EM (under a new EM law, admittedly, which is irrelevant) will need only 18 months. Then that means PA 4 was certainly around long enough to have an impact.

The results of the 2.5 years under PA4 was utter failure. See: DPS.

And it's not an assertion, as I've actually done the things and spoken to the people that I say you haven't in coming to your conclusion.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:53:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're right

By saying "This is the answer to your question," I'm really saying, "I refuse to answer your question."

Also, again, it is an assertion that the majority of Detroiters want to continue under a failed government rather than see a cop show up when they call for one. No matter how many book or block clubs, barbecues, churches, townhall meetings, or other gatherings of people you attend, if the emergency manager makes it so that garbage gets picked up, the streetlights turned on, and police back on the beat, people are going to stop griping about him being there ... especially after the emergency is declared over. I am as certain of that as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 15:02:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ok

Claiming it wasn't around long enough is a cop-out, when it clearly had at least one prominent EM appointed (Roy Roberts) and that EM by any account has done nothing to fix DPS.

A year, two years, or whenever from now, if all those things are fixed and a poll is taken and Detroiters are happy about the EM, I'll eat crow and admit you were right.

My assertion is merely that those things will not happen. It's weird to hear/see/read a liberal like you profess the beauty of austerity measures for prosperity. The issues affecting Detroit go much deeper than Kwame was a crook and some City Council members are inept.  

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 15:32:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'll say

"whipped up by the governor to take control of Detroit for reasons that no one has ever made clear."....

If you don't see the reasons (and people have put them forth), you're choosing not to.

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by: MIChange @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 16:05:52 PM UTC

Eric

time for some Q & A

When has a entity that has been put under EM/EFM been successfully turned around?

Out of how many?

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 16:55:25 PM UTC

Answer:

I'm not a trained monkey. I don't do things on demand.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 17:41:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Trained monkey or not

you know the answer is 0 out of nearly a dozen.

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by: MIChange @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 17:53:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

S'pose there's a reason for that?

The reason we got P.A. 4 was because P.A. 72 had proven to be woefully inadequate for the job. The same people who created the problems in the first place were left in charge and empowered to stymy the recovery.

So, we got P.A. 4. When that was repealed, we got P.A. 4 Lite, which since it's less that four months old is not going to have any kind of track record for success or failure.

The real answer to the question, thus, is that it's impossible to answer, since there have been zero turnarounds attempted under that new law.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 18:07:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

PA 4

Failed also. See: DPS and its EM-spawned bastard child, EAA.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 13:23:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Facepalm

P.A. 4 didn't fail. It was repealed.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:01:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Facepalm again

It failed. Look at DPS. It was in effect for roughly two years. Longer, you'll note, than Snyder claims will be necessary for an EM to turn Detroit around. Ha!

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:17:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you.

you have proven the exact point I was trying to make. You don't know, so let me enlighten you.

There is only 1 entity that has been under a EM/EFM in he past, that is current not, the village of Three Oaks, MI. and there has been 9 total, as far I know or can find information on, so 1/9 great record there, 11% effective.

The Fact is you can't fix this cities by going in and selling everything off, and tearing them down, you fix them by building them up, something republicans will never get, and a attitude I've seen display all to offend in the Suburbs of Detroit and the surrounding areas, when talking about the city

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 17:59:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Pee Wee and Francis

Francis: "Make me!"
Pee Wee: "I don't make monkeys."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Greetings from Detroit, Ground Zero of the post-industrial future!

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by: Neon Vincent @ Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 18:56:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Flint.

The Mayor of Flint worked closely with Michael Brown, and says he regards the EM/EFM mechanism as a set of tools that are useful in severe cases.  Of course, the situation in Flint involved a series of disastrous mayors, followed by one who is sane and competent.

Dave Bing, in Detroit, is certainly sane, but only questionably competent.  More important, Bing seems to have very little influence with his city council, which is clearly INsane and INcompetent.  So an incoming EM will find themself fighting against the efforts of the elected city council, while receiving no significant assistance from the mayor.

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by: Grebner @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 01:55:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

flint is not a case in support of the EM/EFM model

your forget 2002-2008, EFM/EM has fail in Flint, and they are still under a EFM/EM

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 03:28:47 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

THEY WROTE A NEW LAW

One of the governor's first acts was to get a new emergency law through the Legislature on the grounds that the old law wasn't working. Perhaps you remember this, because some progressives went apeshit, pretending that he was going to sell off Roscommon County to Dow Chemical.

Then those same progressives went apeshit again when, after it was repealed last November, he got a similar law through the Legislature in lame duck.

You can't argue that P.A. 4 has failed based on the track record of P.A. 72 when P.A. 4 was written specifically to address the shortcomings of P.A. 72's track record ... although, again, I'm sure you will.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 12:44:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Whitewashing history for Snyder

But you can argue PA 4 has failed based on the track record of PA 4.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 13:25:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No you can't

P.A. 4 was on the books all of two and a half years, and much of that time people knew it was going to a vote of the people.

So, no, you can't say that a law that wasn't really tried failed.  You also can't say that it failed because the law it was written to replace didn't work very well.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:04:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

2.5

So by your own admission it was on the books even longer than I noted in a comment above (I had said roughly 2 years). Snyder says the EM will be able to make significant strides in turning Detroit around in 18 months. PA 4 failed in its 2.5 years in existence. Roy Roberts is case in point. Failed.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:19:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No

I am at a complete loss as to how you get the 2.5 years figure. PA 4 was passed in March 2011. It was suspended in August 2012 and, of course, repealed in November. So it was in effect for ~1.5 years. Also, making "significant strides" is not the same thing as fixing everything, especially in the case of a city with as many problems as Detroit.

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by: Seth9 @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:51:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's correct

For some reason, probably because it's morning, I was thinking that it was adopted the year Snyder was elected.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:55:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's not what I'm saying at all

I'm saying that it's impossible to judge a law based on the results of two and a half years. And, you certainly can't judge it based on a law it was written to replace.

And, do you suppose there's a reason why the governor says he can see things turned around in two years? It's because everyone keeps shrieking about an emergency manager selling Belle Isle to Ayn Randian lunatics and privatizing the police force. He says that to settle down everyone who believes this is a hostile, permanent state takeover of the city. They might even be able to do it.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:53:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

As for the hostile takeover part

What evidence is there that it isn't?

What you don't get is it's not PA this or that necessarily that has failed. It's the entire concept of an 'emergency manager.'

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 14:55:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

<facepalm>

I get that. That's why I keep telling you that you can't judge one law based on the track record of a law it was intended to replace.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 15:04:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Typing facepalm

does nothing to advance your argument. PA 72 failed. PA 4 failed. This PA will fail. Because emergency managers do not work. I can't explain it in a more basic fashion.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 15:34:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

At this point, I'm not trying to advance an argument

I'm pointing out how porous yours is.

As was noted, P.A. 4 was really on the books only for a year and a half, which is way too short to judge whether giving greater powers to emergency managers is the way to proceed.

And, by the way, we still haven't gotten around to asking what you think ought to be done instead to fix failed municipalities and school districts? In fact, I've never heard anyone opposed to emergency managers actually propose anything as an alternative.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 15:59:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not too short

No, it's not. In the time that PA 4 was in effect, and Roy Roberts was appointed EM of DPS, nothing positive happened in those schools. They spent bond money that the previous EFM had floated to build a bunch of new schools, which were subsequently handed over to the EAA to be operated as charters. That alone disqualifies the notion of an EM being successful. Furthermore, just because they are different PAs doesn't mean the concept is all that different. The only difference between the different laws is a power or two here, an extra hearing or meeting there. The concept is austerity to fix a budget debacle.

EMs bring austerity. You, in supporting the concept of emergency managers, are in effect saying the best way to stimulate the US economy is through austerity.

As for what "ought to be done," if you haven't gleaned that from the countless conversations here and elsewhere thus far, well, I suppose you're a lost cause on this one!

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 16:13:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh yeah?

Identify one alternative that has been proposed, here or anywhere else?

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 17:17:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

One

Reversing the divestment in urban cities is a big one ;)

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 17:37:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This will not work

You don't address systemic shortfalls with one-time payments.

Of course, somehow has probably told you that, but you probably just waved that off as a racist form of accounting.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 17:47:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What nonsense are you spitting?

What is a one-time payment and who advocated for that? I said reversing the divestment in urban cities. That has nothing to do with a one-time payment. Do you know what divestment is? It's the opposite of INvestment. Has nothing to do with one-time deals.

Let's begin with the closing of Secretary of State branch offices across the state several years ago. I believe there was a total of 26 to be closed, and somewhere around 22 of them were in Dem (read urban) districts.

How about the disparity with the Healthy Kids Dental Program, where new children are being added again this year, and yet again none come from Wayne County (read urban).

Already cash-strapped schools have to deal with a billion-plus dollars cut from education funding. Grosse Pointe and West Bloomfield are not the main districts getting hurt by such policies.

The list could go on. In fact, the only urban INvestment we've seen in years has been the creation of the RTA for southeastern Michigan. And even that was a massive mountain to climb for this GOP Legislature.

The more you scoff at the notion of racism, the worse you look. Your attitude is unbecoming of a liberal.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 18:05:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's a fallacy

There is a profound difference between austerity at the federal level and austerity at the local level.

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by: Seth9 @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 21:21:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Actually

No there isn't.

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by: MIChange @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 13:41:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Less than one and a half years, actually

PA 4 was signed in to law in March 2011, at which time existing EFMs were grandfathered in with the sweeping new powers -- which is what led to Joe Harris transforming from the sober, Cassandra-like former Auditor General of the City of Detroit to the much-reviled Dictator of Benton Harbor.

PA 4 was suspended as soon as the repeal petition was approved for the ballot in mid-2012, at which time the consensus was that PA 72 was once again the law. Then PA 4 was repealed -- in part thanks to an overwhelming vote for repeal in the City of Detroit. Is that not a concrete example against Eric's notion that most Detroiters want an EFM/EM Czar?

At any rate, the new law goes into effect in just over two weeks. Which is why Gov. Snyder wants to name the EFM now -- because any existing EFMs will once again be grandfathered. After 28 March the process will have to be rewound, which will probably take six months or more to resolve.

As to the "why?" question, I see a comparison between Lansing Republicans' treatment of Detroit and Congress' treatment of the District of Columbia -- two groups of mostly-privileged, mostly-white folk lording it over cities they see as ungovernable and full of downtrodden, resentful black folk...because they CAN.

To Republicans, both Detroit and D.C. are prime candidates for social engineering and/or fiscal policy experiments that would never be considered in the suburbs or rural/semirural areas.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

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by: helzapoppn @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 16:19:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Kudos

For taking the time to understand the issues at play here.

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 16:25:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The problem is that they've been aided by incompetent leaders in Detroit

Did you see the post about Kwame Kilpatrick being found guilty of crimes of corruption?

Detroit hasn't been helped much by Republicans in Lansing, or by white neighbors in the suburubs; but that doesn't excuse the years and years of corruption and incompetence of the city's elected leaders. Screaming "racism" while ignoring the self-inflicted causes of the problem doesn't really do any good.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 17:16:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ignored

The part where you're wrong about Detroiters wanting an EM, of course. Your obsession with Kwame is a bit deranged. Let's make it simple. Kwame good? No. Everything bad = Kwame? No.  

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 17:38:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's far more "A" problem than "THE" problem

Asking whether I saw where Kwame Kilpatrick was found guilty -- the subject of wall-to-wall coverage this week, and certainly well-reported all during his trial...the pre-trial...during his probation/parole...basically, the KK corruption story has been a constant drone ever since the text message scandal first made the news -- is a bit insulting.

Turning your other statement around, "years and years of corruption and incompetence of the City's elected leaders" don't excuse the deliberate actions taken by Republicans in Lansing and those "white neighbors in the suburbs."

Claiming to understand the "self-inflicted causes" while ignoring clear evidence of paternalism and Detroit-bashing doesn't really do any good, either.

P.S. I'm not just screaming "racism" -- there are healthy doses of partisanship, elitism* and anti-union sentiment mixed in.

* Elitism of the Chritianist/1%-er/Tea Party variety, as opposed to the ivory tower/university/tree-hugging elites conservatives love to hate.

"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." ~ Harlan Ellison

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by: helzapoppn @ Wed Mar 13, 2013 at 17:38:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

bullshit

changing one part, pretending to give municipalities a choice, all of which have to be approved by the state or will lead to a EFM/EM anyway, is not the same. nor adding a appropriation to it, a changing the law, and if the courts were not stacked with partisan hacks, this law would get struck down..

Polishing a turd, still makes it a turd

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by: Warhawkgundam @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 22:56:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And!

A turd that was democratically turned down by the voting populace in this state last fall. It doesn't seem to have counted for much, which is both mind-blowing and predictable at the same time.

The wealthy / powerful often call the shots, unless there is a larger group of wealthy / powerful people outgunning their particular interests (see: Maroun, M.).  

Great Lakes, Great Times.

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by: Michael McGuinness @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 23:04:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Its silly to pretend that 40 years of Detroit political corruption is irrelevant.

I understand the knee-jerk reaction to argue that anything associated with Detroit is not really Detroit's fault.  Its true that white (and middle class black) flight was devastaing.  Its true that the decision of the Big Three to send production overseas was devastating.  Its true that the way we finance local government was purposefully slanted against urban (dem) areas in favor of suburban (rep) areas.  Its true that the epidemics of drug culture and single family households has a much greater impact on the poor.

And it is painfully obvious that Detroit has rewarded an absolutely corrupt political culture dating back to the latter part of Coleman Young's career - Coleman Young was actually quite an amazing radical/progressive in the first part of  his career.  If a person cannot accept this obvious fact, then it is hard to take any opinion on Detroit seriously.

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by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 19:41:26 PM UTC

True

It's hardly about glossing over the problems that corruption has indeed caused. I submit that the real knee-jerk reaction is to support an Emergency Manager. That's supposedly the quick, get-it-done, painless way (for the rest of us non-Detroit citizens) to go.

Understanding everything you outlined in your first paragraph, but then to blindly submit to an Emergency Manager who operates not much differently than the 'vulture capitalists' we are supposed to disdain, is inconsistent at best and paternalistic at worst.  

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 19:46:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh, I agree that the EM will be a failure

The law was originally designed for the situation when a local government engages in criminal financial activity.  The EM will not fix anything in Detroit.  I think that is your best argument.  

OTOH, to look past two generations of poltical corruption doesn't do your argument justice.  I think you have to acknowledge that, otherwise you just get ignored, or get accused of racial patronizing (gosh, you really can't expect Detroit to be able to handle things legally).  Right?

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by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 19:59:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I think

we're saying the same thing. Nobody, not even the looniest of Council Members from Detroit, are denying that the city government has not functioned the way it should.

All I've been trying to say is that there are a litany of issues, not solely mismanagement that got the City here. For anything to improve, those issues must be addressed (how municipalities get funding, for one. The overall divestment from urban areas more generally). Coming in and laying people off, ruining lives by unilaterally breaking contracts, and selling off "assets" will never work, as you pointed out.

Eric has tunnel-vision in which he can only see Kwame, though.  

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by: MIChange @ Mon Mar 11, 2013 at 20:07:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

40 years?

How convenient.  I know what people mean when they say 40 years.  It's always about when you set the date that tells your heart.  Detroit was a corrupt-ass city for generations, but much like Chicago until very recently, when the business community wants to make money, it makes money and buildings in cities despite corruption or sometimes even because of corruption when they are able to get in on the city government, or so long as it stays out of their way.

But, no, they were the ones that cost Detroit it's future, and set decades after the local economy began showing signs of strain.  How very...convenient.  I expect this shit from conservatives, I don't expect it from liberals, and I'll sure as hell never accept it from liberals.

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by: MiddleGrandGuy @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 01:03:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you

A serious case study could be done on the latent racial prejudices harbored by self-righteous liberals, fully on display whenever Detroit is the topic of conversation. It's disgusting because we can be better than this.

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by: MIChange @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 13:43:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

WTF are you talking about?

What, exactly, do people mean when they say 40 years?  

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by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 14:11:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

He's calling you a racist

40 years ago, roughly, is when Coleman Young became mayor of Detroit. What he is saying is that because you cited that amount of time that you have a hidden, racist agenda that you're covering up with the trappings of being a Democrat. Rather than asking why (it could be that you're also mostly just referencing the 1967 riots, which everyone else associates with white flight from the city, which helped push Detroit's decline into overdrive), he's just insinuating motives.

That comment was one of the primary drivers in my decision this morning to prohibit people from tossing around slurs like racist and homophobe.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 14:39:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I just wanted to hear (read) him say (write) it

One of the problems that the left-of-center has is the inability to criticize a person from certain categories.  When the issue is race, there is often an underlying, unstated opinion that its unfair to criticize a person of color because, what do you expect?  In other words, the actual racist is often the person with the knee-jerk reaction.

If a person of color is a corrupt asshole, then we should say, "Look at the corrupt asshole".  We should not say, "Well, you've got to understand that historical pinnings behind the modern military industrial ... blah, blah, blah".

I think that is what a post-race world would look like.  

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by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 14:52:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Making excuses

doesn't wipe away the issue. It's a matter of fact that when it comes to Detroit and its challenges, a sizable chunk of the population, regardless of party affiliation, thinks "Just take it over." Inherent in that feeling is a notion of "They can't handle it." I don't bring this up to flame anybody, I bring it up because it's how people (African-American people, in Detroit) actually feel. And to ignore or sweep away those feelings because one does not like them is the exact opposite of what any self-proclaimed liberal should/would do.

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by: MIChange @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 15:00:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not really

I realize that a substantial number of people in Detroit feel that way. I realize that, historically speaking, they have reason to feel that way.

But, they contributed to the problem by continually electing terrible leaders. Those leaders in some cases actually played on those fears by enflaming the idea that it's "us" vs. "them," "Detroit" vs. "the state." And, then those leaders bolloxed up the city's finances because they spent more time looting the city treasury than properly balancing the budget.

It is not inconsistent with "liberal" values to say that people ought to take responsibility for their contribution to a problem. I think people who believe that black people are incapable of self-governance are stupid, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tolerate failed self-government in a city whose population is mostly black. My response to black Detroiters who say that an emergency manager is a tangible expression that racist whites who believe them incapable of self-rule is that when things really mattered they should have done a better job paying attention to the day-to-day grind of municipal operations and budgeting, and elected people according to it.

The causes of Detroit's decline are many, the arc of it long in the making, but there was a time when it probably could have been properly managed.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 15:24:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Fine!

I can accept this. I guess from my vantage point, it just becomes all too easy to ignore policies & other factors that lead to these situations when there is a big, scary corrupt mayor to shoulder the blame.

That being said, it's my hope we (liberals/progs/non-city-haters) can really work together to craft policies and create an environment where urban areas, when devoid of corruption, can thrive. We surely aren't there today, but hopefully someday.

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by: MIChange @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 18:11:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is a constructive comment

I agree that many modern Detroiters feel this way.  I agree that they are often accurate, especially if the "take it over" sentiment is coming from Rs in the suburbs or the west side of the state.  Those feelings should not be swept away.

However, there is a problem in modern Detroit in that whenever a person stands up and tries to make things better, or even just point the finger, there is a well-worn knee-jerk reaction to say the finger pointer is a racist and the do-gooder is "not one of us".  To put it very plainly, when an African American is the do-gooder, that person is subjected to claims of being an Uncle Tom or is not black enough.  Those sentiments protect a Coleman Young at the end of his career, prop up Kwame Kilpatrick, and undermine Dennis Archer and Dave Bing.

White middle class liberalism doesn't help with the "you're with us or you're a racist" perspective.  The 40 years of corruption, give or take, is objective and needs to be addressed.  And its not just any particular Mayor.  Its the City Council, the water/sewer department, the public schools.  Its totally endemic.  Its not okay because this particular corrupt culture happens to be black.  Its not okay when its South Boston, Staten Island, or any other place.

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by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 16:53:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

True

re: the problem in today's Detroit about castigating those individuals as "not one of us." The issue is it becomes so hard to tell when those claims are legitimate and when they are frivolous.

I surely can understand when a basketball star, turned sorta-successful businessman, comes down from his gated community to run for Mayor of Detroit and the people cast him in this light.

I can't understand when a longtime Detroiter, Supreme Court Justice, and whatever else Archer has done, becomes the Mayor and gets the same treatment just because he isn't as likely to cuss and make brash statements as his predecessor.

I can understand it when they say it about Robert Bobb who not only carried out the latest "takeover" of DPS, but failed miserably at doing so.

It seems to me there should be real efforts to bridge the city/suburb divide. Who makes the first move? Hard to tell and at this point is definitely won't come from the political leaders on either side. Both sides have too much to lose by appearing too cozy with the other. Unfortunately.

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by: MIChange @ Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 18:17:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Personally, I support bankruptcy

Here's my issue.

Michigan is a very regional state. There's strong arguments even about what community is in what region. There's a strong township government. There's a strong identity of one's community. Detroit means Detroit - not metro Detroit. Even some argue about what is Metro Detroit or a suburb. I consider it the tri-county area. Some disagree.

Elections have consequences. What happened to the City of Detroit took 50 years to happen. I go back before Young and include Cavanagh. The riots were under his watch. Democrats, both white and black and equally to blame, have run Detroit for 50 years (At least progressives). Wayne County for the same period. I think Bing's probably the best mayor since Cobo although the council basically hamstrings him. He's better than the corrupt Great White Hope Duggan and the McNamara gang.

With the EFM, I see a bailout, eventual removal, and same people taking over after the bailout with the same result we have now.

Elections should have consequences here. Vote for the screw-ups, don't expect us to bail you out. Bankruptcy court is the best solution.  

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin

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by: Republican Michigander @ Wed Mar 13, 2013 at 03:04:20 AM UTC