Hillary Clinton campaigns in Detroit to Michigan AFL-CIO

I dread the idea of Clinton as our nominee (4.00 / 4)

No one will motivate the right-wing to come out and vote *against* our nominee like Sen. Clinton.  Additionally, I have yet to have heard any enthusiasm for her candidacy up here in my neck of the woods.  I think nominating her would be a big mistake.

Just my .0125 worth.

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.

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by: JNelson @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 17:21:54 PM CDT

I don't trust her. (4.00 / 4)

Bill sang a song about NAFTA that people trusted him to sing.  What we got was totally screwed by him.  Labor needs to remember that HRC is DLC and back by big money.  Birds of a feather don't change their stripes.

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by: dkmich @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 17:33:05 PM CDT

Edwards Has Michigan Labor (4.00 / 1)

David. Bonior.

MI Labor aint leaving Edwards.

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by: JordanLFW @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 20:57:01 PM CDT

Not being decided right now (4.00 / 6)

my concerns with Hillary are more about the people she surrounds herself with.

Real DLC insiders and free trade establishment/corporate types.

My fear is that she will get the nomination, she will win the election and destroy all the branding work with have done in an effort to resurrect the Democratic label by more triangulation crap.

I am tired of people getting nominated for our party who are only interested in winning...

I want more then that, and Hillary, while I like her personally, concerns me deeply.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 21:56:43 PM CDT

Hillary is an opportunist (4.00 / 2)

I'm an Obama guy, but at least Edwards had the decency to apologize for voting for George Bush's Iraq War (that BOTH of Michigan's U.S. Senators voted against).

I can't even begin to tell you what a hostile opinion I have of Sen. Clinton. She knew better.

And then there's her political liabilities. Talk about a dead fish. She makes John Kerry look like friggin' Oprah.

Anyone but Hillary!

"HAZEN S. PINGREE...He was the first to warn the people of the great danger threatened by powerful private corporations, and the first to awake to the great inequalities in taxation and to initiate steps for reforms. THE IDOL OF THE PEOPLE"

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by: Hazen Pingree @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 22:32:18 PM CDT

Hillary for fair trade? (0.00 / 0)

Ms. Clinton and Mr. Gore speaking for "smart" trade is akin to Mr. Bush speaking about the importance of border security. While most politicians in both parties are guilty as hell when it comes to NAFTA and GATT/WTO, those two were leaders on that bill.

Unfortunately, with the retirement of Jesse Helms and defeat of Bob Smith, there hasn't been any strong voices on the right going up against this. Duncan Hunter is trying, I'll give him that much.

"He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" - Benjamin Franklin

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by: Republican Michigander @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 23:50:23 PM CDT

I really don't want Hillary to get the nomination.... (4.00 / 3)

She has a strange hostility towards labor that you just don't see in a Democrat.  While I don't think she'd veto the Employee Free Choice Act, I really don't trust her on matter like trade.  Plus, being a former head of Wal Mart doesn't give her any points in my book.

I've said before that I think Hillary can win because she knows how to campaign, but it would be at a great price to the grassroots.  We've all worked hard for the past 4 years as a part of the "people powered" movement, but if Hillary becomes President, it will be like it was in the 1990's.  With large donors getting most, if not all, of the attention, the ignoring of the grass and netroots will lead to the resurrection of the conservative movement.  I'm not in the mood to put up with a Republican Congress again.

On Iraq, I'm too cynical to think she'll try to pull the troops out when she's President.  She'll end up trying for "one last push" leaving us there until late 2009 before popular opinion turns against her and she brings us home.

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

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by: djtyg @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 04:00:00 AM CDT

Hillary Clinton is an original sponsor of the Employee Free Choice Act (0.00 / 0)

Not only is Hillary Clinton a sponsor (click on NY) of the Employee Free Choice Act, but she has committed to signing the bill should she become president.  I understand Repuglicans making stuff up about Senator Clinton, but I don't know why Democrats would.

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by: pwreid @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 20:55:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, I know. (0.00 / 0)

But keeping Mark Penn around isn't doing her any favors.  If she was a pro-union as her supporters are claiming, she wouldn't have even asked him to clear out his desk.  She would've set it on fire, before tossing him out like Jazz on The Fresh Prince.

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

---

by: djtyg @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 01:14:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Michlib and Sen. Clinton (0.00 / 0)

If anyone is curious how folks around Michlib generally feel about Sen. Clinton, take a look at the May straw poll (which is generally consistent with our previous polls):

* Sen. John Edwards - 21 votes (46.67%)
* Sen. Barack Obama - 11 votes (24.44%)
* Gov. Bill Richardson - 5 votes (11.11%)
* Other - 4 votes (8.89%)
* Sen. Chris Dodd - 2 votes (4.44%)
* Sen. Joseph Biden - 1 votes (2.22%)
* Sen. Hillary Clinton - 1 votes (2.22%)
* Unsure - 0 votes (0%)
* Sen. Mike Gravel - 0 votes (0%)
* Rep. Dennis Kucinich - 0 votes (0%)

Best of luck to our new pro-Hillary commenters. You certainly have your work cut out for you.

"HAZEN S. PINGREE...He was the first to warn the people of the great danger threatened by powerful private corporations, and the first to awake to the great inequalities in taxation and to initiate steps for reforms. THE IDOL OF THE PEOPLE"

---

by: Hazen Pingree @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 11:10:37 AM CDT

I think she stinks... (4.00 / 1)

I don't like the idea of handing four consecutive presidencies off to two different families, and in retrospect what I liked most about Bill Clinton was that he a) didn't get me killed when I was in the military, and b) drove the ratshit insane Right ratshit insane.  What I liked least about him was the way that you couldn't ever take him at his word on his positions, that political considerations always seemed to trump what was the right thing to do, and that until he signed the paper anything he said or did was subject to revision on the fly.

I get the exact same vibe off Hillary, and if the Republicans can nominate the right person, and the entry of Fred Thompson into the race only further degrades the quality of their candidates, I'd have to give the GOP consideration in '08.

Among the Trees

---

by: Eric B. @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 12:17:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

HRC's "Class of 1992" problem (4.00 / 4)

A second Clinton presidency, like the second Bush presidency, is the equivalent of the restoration of a royal house. As author Kevin Phillips pointed out, a restored monarchy tends to bring back key figures from the before. In the case of the Clintons, this means the likes of Terry McAuliffe, James Carville, and a host of other consultants, strategists, and pollsters.

It's bad enough that these retreads could get back in power, but even worse, they're obsolete. This country has changed an awful lot since 1992. The Republicans have become much more ferocious, the political center of gravity has swung sharply to the right, and the Democrats' experience with George W. Bush demonstrated that triangulation was a failed strategy.

My biggest fear of a second Clinton presidency is that it will repeat the mistakes of the first one--most notably, the Dick Morris-inspired "Republican lite" policymaking (remember school uniforms?) and turn the Democratic Party back into the playtoy of Beltway-based mandarins. In other words, all the progress that has been made since Howard Dean rallied the troops in 2003 could be undone.

Please read "Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now" by George McGovern and William R. Polk.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 13:32:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hillary Clinton For President - ALL THE WAY! (1.00 / 5)

To start off, GO HILLARY!

Let's look at her opponents first off...

Barack Hussein Obama....well, yea, anybody with Hussein and Obama in their name is definately not getting my vote off the bat. Secondly, he has absolutely no experience, and in the two Democratic debates that have taken place already his inexperience was obvious. All he does is studder, as he doesn't know what to say without advisers crafting his every word!

John Edwards, bless him and his wife - I campaigned fiercely for him in 2004. But he couldn't do it then, and he most certaintely won't do it this time. Fortunately he is passing Obama in virtually all the latest polls.

You people need to face reality. Hillary Clinton is going to be the Democratic Nominee. The Democratic Primary is not going to nominate Barack Obama as he has fallen from 42% in the polls to a mere 16% after his 2nd debate performance, on top of that the crowds at his campaign rally's have been sharply on the decline.

John Edwards isn't going to get the nomination because not only has he not lost, he's not doing good in the polls.

Hillary is already the nominee, and has racked up over 80 different endorsements from various Mayors, Senators, Governors, State Reps from across the country.

How many have Hussein Obama and Edwards racked up so far? None.

In the polls, nationwide Hillary has led from the beginning, and her lead is only increasing. She's at any given time anywhere from 22-35pts ahead of Obama. And anywhere from 35-52 pts ahead of Edwards.

I support Senator Hillary Clinton, and I will work day in and day out to help her become the next president of the United States.

I am supporting Hillary because I trust her, because she's honest and intelligent. She has the experience, wisdom, and courage we desperately need in our next president. She has faced the toughest tests time and time again, and she has always remained true to herself, emerging stronger and more prepared to handle the challenges that come her way.

Hillary will rebuild America's reputation in the world, solve our healthcare crisis, get our schools back on track, and put middle-class families first again, AND effectively address the Climate Change crisis.

We are a nation at war and if the current administration stays the course, we'll still be at war when the next president takes office. While all of the Democratic candidates have spoken out against the war in Iraq, Hillary is the only candidate in this race with the experience and knowledge to get us out of Iraq and bring our troops home.

  I don't know about you, but I have made my choice. I have made my choice for change.

Hillary Clinton is the only choice.
Any vote for a candidate besides Hillary Clinton is a vote for inexperience, and a vote for the same ol' political speak.

---

by: Majmando90 @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 19:19:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i hope to god this isn't coming from her campaign (4.00 / 2)

Barack Hussein Obama....well, yea, anybody with Hussein and Obama in their name is definately not getting my vote off the bat.

Wow.  That's so wrong.

Check out my mediocre blog.

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by: nirmal @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 19:35:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

again, sorry about the formatting (0.00 / 0)

this is how the post was supposed to be formatted:

Barack Hussein Obama....well, yea, anybody with Hussein and Obama in their name is definately not getting my vote off the bat.

Wow.  That's so wrong.

Check out my mediocre blog.

---

by: nirmal @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 21:15:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hussein Obama? (0.00 / 0)

Cute. You may have a future as a racist Fox News commentator. BTW, welcome to Michiganliberal.com:

Username:  Majmando90
PersonId:  2481
Created:  Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 19:52:57 PM EDT

"HAZEN S. PINGREE...He was the first to warn the people of the great danger threatened by powerful private corporations, and the first to awake to the great inequalities in taxation and to initiate steps for reforms. THE IDOL OF THE PEOPLE"

---

by: Hazen Pingree @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 19:37:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Hillary is already the nominee." Huh? (4.00 / 1)

Has the Democratic Party held an alternative series of primaries and caucuses that the rest of us missed? Or, as is more likely, are you indulging in an extravagant form of wishful thinking?

But I digress.

The tone of your post is, to put it mildly, off-putting. Your use of "Barack Hussein Obama" alone is enough to put you in bad odor with this community. Oh, the irony. Senator Clinton's supporters on Daily Kos and other sites are quick to chastise other posters for using what they call "right-wing talking points." You just propagated one of the worst of them all.

In case it hasn't occurred to you, if Senator Clinton is the party's nominee, she will need support from this community and others like it in order to get elected. Reckless screeds such as yours are not exactly the best way to gain that support.

Please read "Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now" by George McGovern and William R. Polk.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 21:39:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Another broad brush (4.00 / 1)

"Any vote for a candidate besides Hillary Clinton is a vote for inexperience"

You folks are either very stupid Hillary supporters, or Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh devotees. Either way - move on and get a life. We're not going to feed your comments anymore.

"The truth is rarely pure and never simple." The Importance of Being Earnest, Act I, Oscar Wilde, 1895

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by: Cordelia Lear @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 22:13:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Who cares about experience? (0.00 / 0)

Most people haven't been elected to office, yet they think they'd make a great President!  I know I'm one of them:).

Besides, if we were going on experience alone, Richardson would be the best guy.  I mean, c'mon, did Hillary ever negotiate a cease fire in Darfur?

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

---

by: djtyg @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 01:48:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yall realize (0.00 / 0)

that it is very easy to figure out what IP address you are posting from...

And it better not be coming from an official Clinton address or an affiliated group.

Just to be clear...we will severely burn any campaign that attempts to misuse this blog to produce netspin for your campaign...Republican, Democratic or Green.

If you don't know the affects of what that can lead to...I invite you to check out this story.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 22:47:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This one takes the cake.... (4.00 / 1)

Barack Hussein Obama....well, yea, anybody with Hussein and Obama in their name is definately not getting my vote off the bat.

What kind of racist shit is this?  I really hope this isn't from her campaign.

Good golly, the rest of this drivel is 100% bullshit.  I'm amazed that in this long comment, there isn't one thing in there has has a shred of truth to it.  Except for Edwards losing in 2004.  That's it.

I could go through and debunk all of this, but I'll just quote and respond here:

We are a nation at war and if the current administration stays the course, we'll still be at war when the next president takes office. While all of the Democratic candidates have spoken out against the war in Iraq, Hillary is the only candidate in this race with the experience and knowledge to get us out of Iraq and bring our troops home.

I'm telling you, as a OIF veteran, go fuck yourself.

Who wrote this drivel?  Sean Hannity?

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

---

by: djtyg @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 01:27:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mmmmm ... right. (0.00 / 0)

Hillary Clinton is the only choice.
Any vote for a candidate besides Hillary Clinton is a vote for inexperience, and a vote for the same ol' political speak.

This is a joke, right?

Among the Trees

---

by: Eric B. @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 09:16:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

school uniforms (0.00 / 0)

the Dick Morris-inspired "Republican lite" policymaking (remember school uniforms?)

I am sorry to say that school uniforms has been implemented in certain areas of MD -- the bluest of states.

The majority of schools in Prince George's County Public Schools now have mandatory school uniforms. The first mandatory uniform policy in the nation was in a Baltimore City area school.

The civil libertarian in me shudders, but I've found that the policy is popular w/ parents in these jurisdictions, which tend to be majority-minority/immigrant.

Most immigrants wore school uniforms in their home countries. A couple of incidents locally involving killing over sneakers drove support with US-born parents.

Doesn't Detroit Public Schools have a uniform policy?

---

by: Marylander @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 03:17:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You inadvertently made my point (0.00 / 0)

Whether you're for school uniforms or against them (I'm adamantly opposed), it's a local issue--not something for Bill Clinton or any other president to stick his nose into.

Bill Clinton was the greatest campaigner of all time, but as president, he had (aside from his libido) two major faults. One was his tendency to pander. The other was a tin ear when it came to civil liberties. Sad to say, I see both tendencies in the former first lady.

Please read "Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now" by George McGovern and William R. Polk.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 06:30:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

balancing acts (0.00 / 0)

One was his tendency to pander. The other was a tin ear when it came to civil liberties. Sad to say, I see both tendencies in the former first lady.

I think the Democrats as a group are signaling how they plan to manage the divisiveness of the 90s.

Take a look at this Wired article: Hillary: The Privacy Candidate?"

I found myself nodding in agreement but paused at the last two paragraphs. Of course -- with the sharp focus on more efficient medical record-keeping to limit costs, major privacy issues will arise. So, tough on privacy rights will go hand-in-hand with attempts at health care reform.

Looking at the Second Chance Act (prison re-entry, Obama is a co-sponsor and recently gave a speech highlighting this legislation)-- help ex-offenders but include a provision to make it difficult for serious felons to obtain early release. Quoting Chuck Colson (!):

Now, anticipating the inevitable chorus of 'soft on crime', the bill helps states and local governments develop and adopt procedures to ensure that dangerous felons are not released from prison prematurely. This is a reminder that doing right by ex-offenders and public safety are not only compatible but also complementary.

Or, looking at Obama's 'Responsible Fatherhood' legislation (co-sponsored w/ Bayh, echo'd in Edwards' 'Two Americas'):

  - increase EITC payments for singles to promote child support WHILE increasing funding for domestic violence programs. This is an acknowledgement that when govt inserts itself into personal relationships to promote a desirable behavior, there may be negative outcomes in engineering pairings.

Immigration reform - need I say more? Path to citizenship and temporary 'guest worker' programs AND securing the border.

Most of what I see out there is cobbled together to please "all sides" rather than to advance a partisan perspective on  the role of government. Irrespective of the nominee -- and this includes Clinton in a big way -- I don't think you're going to see a tin ear to *any* perspective, which is worrisome in its own way. Sometimes you just have to say X is advisable, Y is a disaster.

---

by: Marylander @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 13:15:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A moment here... (0.00 / 0)

I just had to give a pro-Hillary poster a 4.0 comment to unhide their comment.

Folks, advocacy for a Democratic candidate you don't like isn't a reason to Troll-rate someone.  If you think the site is being astroturfed, develop the proper evidence and bring it to the attention of the proper authorities.  Don't troll-rate as an alternative.

Among the Trees

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by: Eric B. @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 19:45:01 PM CDT

You're right (0.00 / 0)

It was instinctive. I've bumped him up to a 1. See below.

"HAZEN S. PINGREE...He was the first to warn the people of the great danger threatened by powerful private corporations, and the first to awake to the great inequalities in taxation and to initiate steps for reforms. THE IDOL OF THE PEOPLE"

---

by: Hazen Pingree @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 20:03:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I didn't troll rate, but we are being astroturfed. (4.00 / 1)

1.  She calls herself a nurse in Iowa.  WTF would a nurse in Iowa be doing on this blog?

2.  Jon Koller found her IP address was from Canada.

Anyway, if I get a chance to talk to Hillary at a speaking engagement, she's getting a piece of my mind on this one.

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

---

by: djtyg @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 01:32:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, I saw that ... and changed my ratings. (4.00 / 1)

Trolled ... astroturfed, same thing.

Among the Trees

---

by: Eric B. @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 05:35:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Speaking for myself (0.00 / 0)

I found this diary linked from hillaryhub.com.

I am not associated with her (or any) campaign. I use hillaryhub to try to find some balance in the online discussions surrounding her candidacy.

---

by: Marylander @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 02:58:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fair enough... (0.00 / 0)

Why do you support her?

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

---

by: djtyg @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 03:03:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am not completely sold (4.00 / 1)

but strongly leaning.

I have a lot of respect for her solid command of issues. It inspires confidence, frankly. I've seen her in person, and she's quite good.

One area of concern is her support for increasing H1-B visas (Silicon Valley speech) but the other candidates aren't distinguishing themselves from her on this. Both Edwards & Obama have called for the same during their respective trips to SV.

---

by: Marylander @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 03:39:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And welcome (4.00 / 1)

not because you support or reject the Clinton campaign or any other campaign, but because your posts have a ring of believability in them...

Please stay around, your comments have been a plus.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 11:26:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

thanks (n/t) (4.00 / 1)

---

by: Marylander @ Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 13:17:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

On second thought... (0.00 / 0)

I'm uprating the comment so the world can see precisely the kind of stupid shit Hillary's supporters are putting out these days. What next? Arayan Brotherhood for Hillary?

"HAZEN S. PINGREE...He was the first to warn the people of the great danger threatened by powerful private corporations, and the first to awake to the great inequalities in taxation and to initiate steps for reforms. THE IDOL OF THE PEOPLE"

---

by: Hazen Pingree @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 20:01:36 PM CDT

How disturbing (4.00 / 2)

that Team Hillary thinks we're so stupid here that they can throw three staffers (or unpaid lackies) at us with consecutive User ID numbers and we won't figure it out.

Yet another reason to be disgusted by these folks --"Hussein Obama" and the crap about Edwards?!

Icky!!!

West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

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by: philgoblue @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 22:06:49 PM CDT

speaking for myself! (0.00 / 0)

I am in no way, shape or form affiliated with the Clinton Campaign.

I do find it hilarious though, that when debating, the second you guys encounter someone with opposing views your gun-ho to jump to conclusions that you're being  ''astro-turfed''.

I dont have anything to respond to about my Edwards statements, I think for the most part you agree with me there. He's lost before, there's no way the Primary voters are going to risk him again. John Kerry knew that, why doesn't Edwards?

As far as my use of ''Barack Hussein Obama'' - this is the primary. It's Democrats vs. Democrats and Republicans vs. Republicans right now. I've read many political strategy books etc, especially ones reguarding character assasination, image losing, getting completely bombarded by the new and old media - the Far Right does it all the time, the left has yet to really been able to effectively make a candidate lose their public image.

Like I said, this is the primary. I'm pro-Hillary, anti-Obama. I'm just using a Right Wing move here.

---

by: Majmando90 @ Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 20:44:43 PM CDT

Unassailable Right Wing Logic (4.00 / 2)

"Barack Hussein Obama....well, yea, anybody with Hussein and Obama in their name is definately not getting my vote off the bat."

With such airtight and scintillating logic as this in a debate, I am won over and hereby declare myself a Hillary supporter.

How could I possibly not fathom (until now) the obvious ridiculousness of a name such as Barack Hussein Obama? It has none of the dignity of shrubbery (Bush) or the austerity of a fenced settlement (Clinton).

Also, it should be pointed out that many people on MichLib are often easily won over by the frequent use of "sanuzisms" such as "your gun-ho," "yet to really been able," "reguarding," "assasination," or run-on sentences.

---

by: rich @ Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 21:36:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think it's pretty clear (0.00 / 0)

that your three accounts are austroturfing the site...

And your attempt to do so do more harm to your candidate than help. Perhaps the campaign can find something more useful for you folks to do...like getting Hillary to admit so f*cked up on the Iraq war vote.

If her mistake was only in trusting Bush, she has already shown she doesn't have the intelligence or skills to be president of these United States.

---

by: Nazgul35 @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 15:39:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Looks like you've never heard of the Law of Holes (0.00 / 0)

The Law of Holes states: "When you find yourself in a hole stop digging."

Please read "Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now" by George McGovern and William R. Polk.

---

by: Hy Dudgeon @ Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 15:47:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]