'Political reality' and the Senate

Why? (0.00 / 0)

Barring a two chamber solution, why should any house member walk the plank for what ultimately could be nothing?

I am all for profiles in courage but at least if you are gonna  cut your throat make sure it is for a final deal.

"Win if you can, lose is you must, but ALWAYS cheat!" -- Jesse Ventura

"Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going. Wooooo!" -- Ric Flair

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by: Black Earl @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 00:31:14 AM CDT

It's suicide if they do nothing. (4.00 / 2)

Pingree's right.  They can either take the balme for a shutdown and lose in 2008, or they can do the right thing and have a fighting chance to keep their jobs.

Because believe me, NOBODY is getting reelected if they take the blame for a shutdown.

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

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by: djtyg @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 00:43:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why? I think Hazen said it best... (4.00 / 3)

this storyline fits precisely within the ongoing rap against Dems nationally - that we're a party full of boneless wonders who just blow with the wind and can't ever seem to get the job done

What's the point of having a majority if you're not willing to put up the votes and do the right thing when the fate of the state is at hand?

You talk about a "final deal" -- what makes you think Mike Bishop will ever agree to a "final deal"? Just a couple weeks ago Andy Dillon said this:

There was a deal. The Governor sent a letter, she talked about it, and there was six-eight people sitting in a room when that deal got cut, and Mike walked from that, and I bit my tongue because I wanted an outcome. I've been busting my... you know what... to get Mike Bishop to get a bipartisan deal. Every time we have a chance to cut a deal, he walks away. Today he walked away...

It's clear that Mike Bishop has no interest in bargaining in good faith with the Governor of Speaker Dillon. Given that, the best choice for House Dems is Option B: Pass a tax increase bill and put blame for the shutdown squarely in Mike Bishop's domain.

Trust me, the blowback from Option A (Not pass anything and be portrayed as part of the problem) will be much worse than anything the Pigman can throw at us.

The less you know, the more you believe.

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by: PaulHewson @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 00:54:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Preach on, brotha Pingree! (4.00 / 4)

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

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by: djtyg @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 00:38:07 AM CDT

Amen (4.00 / 3)

Glad your back for this. It takes a heckuva situation to have a man rise from the grave a second time.

Success is not final, failure is not fatal. - Winston Churchill  

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by: TJarrell @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 01:26:18 AM CDT

Bishop gets to define the terms (4.00 / 5)

The other huge problem with failing to pass any plan is that Bishop now gets to define the terms of the debate in the Senate. He's talking about a cut/revenue combo that's heavy on the cuts. That will then become the defacto plan and House Dems will be in the position of arguing why we need to cut less when we could have put Bishop in the position of why he needed to cut more.

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by: NoviDemocrat @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 02:54:41 AM CDT

Game theory (4.00 / 4)

only works when both sides are willing to accept the rules of the game.  Dillon continues his efforts to be fair & bipartisan & is shocked, shocked! to find that Bishop ain't playing. 

Bishop knows that he's safe (for the short term), because Dillon's inability to move a handful of Dems has turned into the story.  Hazen is absolutely right -- Dillon needs to whip everyone into line, pass the damn bill and sit back to watch Bishop squirm.

P.S. I'm in Chris Ward's district & I was disgusted (though not surprised) to see that he was left twisting in the wind...

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by: kelster @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 06:44:55 AM CDT

The Problem from the Beginning (4.00 / 2)

This has been the problem from the very beginning of this battle going back to Granholm's State of the State speech. She unveiled a plan but obviously hadn't rallied Dillon and the House Dems behind it. So instead of putting forward a united front and putting Bishop on the defensive right away, he got to dictate a lot of terms for the previous budget agreement that were ridiculous (like the "delayed payments" to universities that we all knew might never materialize).

Fast forward a few months later and now we have ten Democrats who simply won't vote. Or as they would say, "Taking a principled stand by not-voting in order to force a bipartisan deal." If a bipartisan deal is so important why aren't Simpson, Byrum and the ten putting forward their own bipartisan plan?

Jack Lessenberry had this to say about those ten Democrats, "They are gutless wonders. They refused to vote because they want to hang on to a job they are going to lose in six years; the state of Michigan is at stake here."

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by: rich @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 07:42:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Interesting Question (0.00 / 0)

Before Granholm's State of the State, did Dillon promise Granholm that he would support her plan?  Did he have any input on the plan before it was announced?

If he did, and failed to deliver, then it's Dillon, not the ten Democrats that is a "gutless wonder".

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by: SoberOakland @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 09:20:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dillon Not Trying to Be Fair and Bipartisan (0.00 / 0)

He's just plain chicken.  He wants someone else to do his hard work for him, whether that's the Governor, Chris Ward or Mike Bishop.

A shocking display of a lack of intestinal fortitude.

Afraid of a pink pig and Hair Gel Man.

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by: SoberOakland @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 09:15:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If the Dems who vote no are afraid of the Pig (4.00 / 1)

Lets give them our own pig...challenge them in the primary if they are going to vote like a Republican.

Success is not final, failure is not fatal. - Winston Churchill  

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by: TJarrell @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 12:53:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am embarassed by my Party's lack of courage and leadership (4.00 / 3)

Simpson, Griffin and the rest of the Yellow 10 should be ashamed to be instructed in the art of leadership by Republican Chris Ward.  They are obviously only interested in keeping their jobs, not doing what's needed to help save Michigan.  Gov. Pingree is right-- if the state shuts down, the whole legislature deserves to be thrown out!!  Enough is enough.

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by: MichiganDem @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 07:33:00 AM CDT

What we have here is a failure to communicate (4.00 / 3)

And frankly, I think it's because we (as Democrats) have especially poor messengers.

It's getting to the point where I am thinking we need a new mindset entirely.  I'm not talking about folks on the tubes, I'm talking the real world characters--namely our elected representatives.

I'd say it's high time to recall the Athenians and send in some Spartans.

Julie

To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it's fun to watch.

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by: JNelson @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 08:48:33 AM CDT

Yes! More Spartans. (0.00 / 0)

Send in these guys!

Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

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by: djtyg @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 14:31:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Friggin' hilarious! (4.00 / 2)

I completely agree. We totally need to invite these guys to the Capitol tomorrow.

Oh...speaking of Spartans...it's time for the game. Go green!

"HAZEN S. PINGREE...He was the first to warn the people of the great danger threatened by powerful private corporations, and the first to awake to the great inequalities in taxation and to initiate steps for reforms. THE IDOL OF THE PEOPLE"

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by: Hazen Pingree @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 14:51:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Courage comes in surprising places... (4.00 / 3)

There is likely to be some political (and financial) fallout for some of the very astute things said here today.  Some of our comments will be taken out of context by Rethugs and MSM to "prove" points.  For whatever record this may be, I am proud to be part of a civilized discourse in which members of the Democratic Party can question authority and help to shape the process.

Some elected officials, staff and MDP folks may see this dialog as heresy and that we are being disloyal.  My response is that I am a member of the Democratic Party, not a slave to it.  I refuse to drink whatever Kool-Aid is being passed around because the stains may wash out of your clothes, but to your soul, it's permanent.

I will think independently, vote democratically and live responsibly. 

Do stupid people know they are stupid?

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by: JPowers155 @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 09:17:57 AM CDT

It's Time for Democrats to Act Like Democrats (4.00 / 5)

What's the point of a Democratic majority in the House, if they vote like Republicans and fail to protect education, health care, and public safety?

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by: SoberOakland @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 09:23:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The yellow Ten (4.00 / 2)

I apologize in advance for my naive comments. However, I cannot sit still and watch these yellow ten display that for which the democrats nationally are tagged with; ie. DOING NOTHING!

Hazen Pingree arises again with the needed sense.

Do any of you ten cowards for a moment think that you will not be challenged in the next primary for your present seat? You will be held accountable for - DOING NOTHING!

If you do not vote with the dem caucus, you will be voted out of office at primary time. You will not even be given the choice to run for your precious seat. No pension, no salary, no healthcare for life.

Sh%t or get off the pot. We will work to remind the dem base that you are worthless cowards. This means Barb Byrum and Marc Corriveau as well. Don't count on owning momma's seat past the next election or "change your mind fast".

Now I will not be so crabby. The other side will beat us with their cohesive group. Only one crossed over and Mr. Ward will be crucified for his courage. Any dem who voted against this should likewise be held accountable.

Enjoy your seats coward yellow dogs.

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by: doxie53 @ Sat Sep 22, 2007 at 10:12:36 AM CDT