A SoapBlox Politics Blog
[Mobile Edition]
About
- About Us
- Email Us (news/tips)
- Editorial Policy
- Posting Guidelines
- Advertise Here
Feedburner

Subscribe to Michlib daily email summary. (Preview)
Enter address:

Donate
Become a sponsor and support our work.

 MichLib sponsor list

Michigan Political Blog Ad Network

Advertise Liberally

50 State Ad Network

Liberal Feed Network

Latest hand-selected Michigan political news and analysis headlines

People who failed to produce ID at the polls - who where they?

by: Grebner

Mon Dec 03, 2007 at 16:40:36 PM EST


The elections just held were the first in which Michigan voters were required either to produce some sort of photo ID, or to fill out an affidavit stating they didn't possess such ID.  The drafting of the requirement was so bad that it probably served more to irritate voters, than significantly impede them.  Still - inquiring minds demand - what were the characteristics of the people who failed to produce ID?

 To begin to understand the effect of the law, I obtained all affidavits filed in the City of Lansing - 77 in all - and looked up their voting history and such information as my firm possesses about their affiliations.  There are a number of obvious limitations of this study:  it was only in Lansing, it examined a low-turnout election rather than a presidential general which would attract less-knowledgable voters, and the first experience may not fully predict the long-term effect.

Still, here's what I found.

 

Grebner :: People who failed to produce ID at the polls - who where they?

In a word, the great majority of the people who filed affidavits were very good voters, not casual ones.  They were more likely to have voted in previous city council elections than the other people who voted last month.  They tended to be middle-aged, rather than young.  And they were overwhelmingly Democratic - something like 80% are coded on my file as Dems, compared to 10% ticket-splitters and 10% Republicans.  These folks do not appear to have been a random assortment of people who have lost or forgotten their wallets.

 Of the nearly 11,000 people who cast ballots, 3700 used absentee ballots, so only about 7000 appeared at the polls on election day.  Of those, almost exactly 1% filled out affidavits saying they didn't "possess" ID, and my guess is that between 2/3 and 3/4 of those were filed by people who were really trying to either test or protest the system. 

 Of the remaining fifteen or so, many were young or lacked a consistent history of voting.  Those people - about 0.2% of the total walk-in votes - represent the nucleus of concern.

 Interestingly, there was no geographic clustering - affidavits were filed in 31 of Lansing's 43 precincts.  That suggests there was no organized effort, but just the random result of a bunch of Democratic-leaning activists to challenge the law on their own.

Tags: , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Heh (4.00 / 1)
One of the criticisms of the law was that it was designed to suppress democratic vote. But, it was thought that it would target lower income Dems. Is there anything in your data to that would allow you to take a guess, educated or otherwise, on the number of discouraged voters (i.e., voters who, aware of the law, did not turn up because of it)? Also, is there anything in your date that supports the purpose of the law, i.e. discouraging fraud?

The law, as written, is a waste of time and effort. (4.00 / 4)
It's hard for me to imagine the connection of this requirement to the prevention of vote fraud, since such fraud is invariably committed by organizations connected to the government, and usually in particular to the elections officials.  I've never seen a genuine case of election fraud that didn't have incumbent office-holders at the center, or where the employees who handed ballots weren't at least passive participants.

My guess is that almost nobody shows up at the polls and is driven away by the requirement to sign an affidavit.  The real damage to participation results from the thumb-nail description of the law: "You have to show them your drivers license or you can't vote."  Nobody whispers "just kidding" to people who either don't have a drivers license or don't have one that shows their current address.  I don't know any way to assess the size of this problem, since the people likely to be discouraged are certain to be marginal, disorganized, and disaffected to begin with.


[ Parent ]
So suppresion is real? Intended? (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
Act of Protest (4.00 / 1)
I considered doing this myself - then decided it would be really, really, dumb to intentionally make more work for the elderly poll workers in my precinct, who had absolutely nothing to do with this law other than to carry it out. Curious - how did you find out the info about affidavit voters? Where was this posted? Might be worth checking out for my county... The real question is, how many voters saw the "You must have ID" signs, turned around and went home? We'll never know that, but that is the true purpose of the law.

Can you FOIA that stuff? (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
I suppose so (4.00 / 1)

but I'm pretty sure that's not what Grebner did - FOIA takes a long time. I'm thinking the County Clerks have the info, and could make it available without too much trouble, but whether it is posted online somewhere is what I'm hoping he'll tell me. Our County Clerk is busy enough right now dealing with Jan. 15 without me pestering him!

However, I'd like to do a similar study to try to find evidence for my contention that this law is about increasing the 'friction' in the voting process to depress turnout, and not at all for its ostensible purpose of preventing fraud.



[ Parent ]
Why is the Progessive movement gaining strength (4.00 / 2)
b/c we know how to access information And vote.

[ Parent ]
This is going to appear absurd but (4.00 / 4)

Call the clerk.  They are like librarians, they always will help anyone interested in what they do. We have one who posts here and he never fails to answer questions.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks for noticing (4.00 / 4)
I try to help out where I can.

I think I heard there were 443 affidavits filed in the city of Grand Rapids (where there was a contested municipal elections).  That would make a larger pool for analysis.


[ Parent ]
I'll try to get them (4.00 / 1)
I have shit for memory so email me at eerland@twoheylaw.com and remind me.

[ Parent ]
I have not carried a business card (4.00 / 1)
since '93 so don't try for my profile on that site.

[ Parent ]
We all get by with a little help from our friends (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Oh, I know the clerk really well (4.00 / 1)

I served on the County Board of Canvassers before. And he is a Republican, and super-helpful whenever I need anything for my Democratic Party work. One of the good guys.

I just don't want to pester him right now. Anyhow, I'm busy getting candidates lined up. I'll look into this after Jan. 15.



[ Parent ]
Please (4.00 / 1)
pretty please with sugar on top?  Grebner has something up his sleeve.

[ Parent ]
Oh - I misunderstood - (4.00 / 1)
this is something YOU are interested in having/researching? Email me at memiller55 at charter dot net and let me know exactly what you need - I'm not quite clear.

[ Parent ]
"He"? 9-letter county? (4.00 / 1)
I like him too.  Moderate and fair minded.

[ Parent ]
Yes. (4.00 / 1)
Tim has helped extensively with voter registration drives, explaining to (sometimes clueless) folks exactly how to do it.

[ Parent ]
Priceless (4.00 / 1)
another Pingree? with patience?

[ Parent ]
The affidavits are subject to FOIA. (4.00 / 5)
But you're correct that I was given copies informally, since the Lansing City Clerk, Chris Swope, is an old friend and was also curious about what I'd find.

FOIA doesn't need to be time-consuming, and doesn't even need to be in writing.  Every time you ask for next week's school menu, you are triggering the provisions of law.  And every time they tell you it's in the rack by the front door, they're complying with the act.  FOIA is only time-consuming, burdensome, and formal, when the request is unusual or the unit of government decides to screw around.


[ Parent ]
Mark, do you know how many polling locations are in Michigan? Or how many precincts? (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
5300 precincts, 3800 distinct polling locations (4.00 / 1)
Those numbers are from 2006, and aren't precise - precincts are always slowly changing.  But they're within the ballpark.

[ Parent ]
CYA (4.00 / 1)
It's been my experience that a lot of government units use FOIA requests to prevent themselves from being criticized for being too forthcoming to journalists.  You ask for a piece of information, and they ask that you give them a FOIA request as a formality, just so they can show their higher ups that they were compelled by law to release it.

Among the Trees

[ Parent ]
OK, I didn't l know that about FOIA (4.00 / 1)
I guess what I've heard about are the hard cases, not the routine ones.

[ Parent ]
I got them from the City Clerk, not from the County. (4.00 / 2)
I don't think they get transmitted to the County.  Also, they seem to be available immediately after the election, not sealed with the ballots and the other election day materials for 30 days.

[ Parent ]
Who where they?:) (4.00 / 2)


Putting conservatives in charge of our government makes about as much sense as GM hiring a CEO who hates cars.

In Detroit (4.00 / 3)
Volunteers were posted at most polls in the Detroit area to make sure that voters weren't being disenfranchised and were allowed to vote. I think the program worked well and is bound to be repeated for next year's election.

Bless those effort (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
You have their names (4.00 / 1)
why not simply ask them...

Too much work. (4.00 / 2)
If anybody would like the data, I'd be happy to share.

[ Parent ]
Polling 77 people (4.00 / 1)
is too much work?

Don't you do this for a living?


[ Parent ]
Running my own firm, everything I do can be translated into dollars. (4.00 / 7)
If I assign somebody to contact and interview them, it would take about 40 hours to contact, interview, and code information from about them - I'd guess we'd finally get useful interviews with about 45 of them.  The cost, just in wages, would run about $500.  Including fringes and supervision pushes the cost to about $1000.  If I were doing this for a client, which is to say, making money, I would probably charge about $2000.

Instead, I just had somebody key and look up the 77 names, and then I performed a few calculations - about $100 in hard costs.  

I'm sorry if my effort seems insufficient to you.


[ Parent ]
Not insufficient (1.00 / 2)
unscientific.

And if you are going to go on blogs making posts that attempt to engage in science, don't complain when you get called on it.

Scientific inquiry isn't a hobby...


[ Parent ]
Complain? (4.00 / 2)
Did anybody hear Grebner complain? Does he even know how?  

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[ Parent ]
Tell you what (4.00 / 2)
send me the names and I'll do it.

[ Parent ]
Do I have an email address for you? (4.00 / 3)
Send a note to Mark Dot Grebner At GMail Dot Com.  

[ Parent ]
On second thought (4.00 / 1)
if I am going to use a Grad student, I'd rather they were working on your precinct data from the previous posts.

That info can be transfered relatively easily.


[ Parent ]
Using the passive voice doesn't tell me what to do. (4.00 / 3)
"That info can be transfered relatively easily."

If you're asking me to do something, you have to tell me what, and how.


[ Parent ]
Even if someone had the time to do this, (4.00 / 2)
one would have to be VERY careful about how the survey was worded. I can imagine freaking out if I got a phone call about an affidavit I filled out - did I REALLY not have ID? Am I going to get prosecuted over this??

[ Parent ]
Testing of human subjects (4.00 / 1)
covers this explicitly. You would have to let them know exactly why you were calling...

[ Parent ]
Doesn't apply to political polling or consultants. (4.00 / 6)
All the regulations regarding human subjects pertain only to academic researchers, and are required as a condition for the institution to receive federal money.  I don't get federal money, I don't work for a university, and I make my own rules.  The name for our governing regulation is "The First Amendment", which doesn't impose many constraints.

[ Parent ]
Didn't say it did (4.00 / 1)
just trying to draw a further distinction between what you do and what is scientific...

Thanks for illustrating it in finer detail.


[ Parent ]
There's lots of science that isn't done at universities. (4.00 / 4)
And lots of stuff that IS done at universities, that doesn't deserve the title.

[ Parent ]
Granted (4.00 / 1)
But the only way to know for sure is to possess the proper level of statistical knowledge to recognize ecological fallacies, the importance of internal validity problems and selection on the dependent variable...to name a few.

[ Parent ]
I don't mind being sniped at. (4.00 / 4)
I feel no need to defend my professionalism, competence, credentials, or intelligence.

[ Parent ]
Don't defend them (0.00 / 0)
acknowledge that what you are engaged in isn't science...

Calling some of your diaries "technical politics" is an attempt to portray what you are doing as scientific, replicable and generalizable implying that it follows the well know procedures for scientific inquiry.

If it was called "Best Guess" I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Since we started these exchanges you have made several serious errors that have raised questions about your methods. I am willing to view your data and methods to check that what you do, in fact, is sufficiently rigorous to meet scientific standards.

If you are unconcerned about this within the context of your business, I have no gripe with you and many happy returns.

But when you post diaries on this site, a highly read liberal blog in Michigan, you subject yourself and your methods to public scrutiny...

And yes, then you need to defend your competence.


[ Parent ]
You two need to do a joint post on the technical and practical (4.00 / 2)
aspects of number crunching and elections.

For us, the uneducated.  Compare and contrast you arguments.

For us, the uneducated.


[ Parent ]
And who........ (4.00 / 1)
would be in possession of those attributes? No wait, let me guess.

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[ Parent ]
Grebner and Nazgul35 (4.00 / 2)
I would love to see them do something together that both argues their respective points and sheds some light for the rest of us.

[ Parent ]
If...... (4.00 / 2)
Nazgul could stop his childish sniping long enough to to objectively argue his point.  

The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

 - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[ Parent ]
Just because you don't understand (0.00 / 0)
the points I am making doesn't make them childish.

To continue the original point, in case you missed it:

Grebner gathered data on individuals to test examine "why" they filled out affidavits. He based his assumptions on a best guess that has no basis in anything approaching scientific inquiry. Hence my original post, "why not just ask them."

Grebner than decided to fill us all in on the costs...which, considering how much people use Grebner's data set and the importance of this issue, I was a little more than surprised that he wouldn't find out.

In addition to this one comment, Grabner has made posts that seriously place doubt in my mind about how he is portraying himself and his "data" on this site. I referenced some of those points in this post:

"But the only way to know for sure is to possess the proper level of statistical knowledge to recognize ecological fallacies, the importance of internal validity problems and selection on the dependent variable...to name a few."

It doesn't take five seconds to do a goggle search on thse terms to enlighten yourself to the importance of the problems associated with these.


[ Parent ]

Features

Change.org|Start Petition

Mobile Blog Reader - powered by Notice Orange
RSS
Politics & Elections Library:
-
US Senate
- US House
- Executive Branch
- Michigan Senate
- Michigan House
- State Supreme Court
- Michigan Media

Special Sections:
- Technical Politics - Grebner
- Michigan's Fallen

Search
Progressive Blogroll
For MI Bloggers:
- MI Bloggers Facebook
- MI Bloggers Myspace
- MI Bloggers PartyBuilder
- MI Bloggers Wiki

Statewide:
- Blogging for Michigan
- Call of the Senate Dems
- [Con]serving Michigan (Michigan LCV)
- DailyKos (Michigan tag)
- Enviro-Mich List Serve archives
- Democratic Underground, Michigan Forum
- Jack Lessenberry
- JenniferGranholm.com
- LeftyBlogs (Michigan)
- MI Eye on Bishop
- Michigan Coalition for Progress
- Michigan Messenger
- MI Idea (Michigan Equality)
- Planned Parenthood Advocates of Michigan
- Rainbow Mittens
- The Upper Hand (Progress Michigan)

Upper Peninsula:
- Keweenaw Now
- Lift Bridges and Mine Shafts
- Save the Wild UP

Western Michigan:
- Great Lakes Guy
- Great Lakes, Great Times, Great Scott
- Mostly Sunny with a Chance of Gay
- Public Pulse
- West Michigan Politics
- West Michigan Rising
- Windmillin'

Mid-Michigan:
- Among the Trees
- Blue Chips (CMU College Democrats Blog)
- Christine Barry
- Conservative Media
- Far Left Field
- Graham Davis
- Honest Errors
- ICDP:Dispatch (Isabella County Democratic Party Blog)
- Liberal, Loud and Proud
- Livingston County Democratic Party Blog
- MI Blog
- Mid-Michigan DFA
- Pohlitics
- Random Ramblings of a Somewhat Common Man
- Waffles of Compromise
- YAF Watch

Flint/Bay Area/Thumb:
- Bay County Democratic Party
- Blue November
- East Michigan Blue
- Genesee County Young Democrats
- Greed, Eggs, and Ham
- Jim Stamas Watch
- Meddling Outsider
- Saginaw County Democratic Party Blog
- Stone Soup Musings
- Voice of Mordor

Southeast Michigan:
- A2Politico
- arblogger
- Arbor Update
- Congressman John Conyers (CD14)
- Mayor Craig Covey
- Councilman Ron Suarez
- Democracy for Metro Detroit
- Detroit Skeptic
- Detroit Uncovered (formerly "Fire Jerry Oliver")
- Grosse Pointe Democrats
- I Wish This Blog Was Louder
- Kicking Ass Ann Arbor (UM College Democrats Blog)
- LJ's Blogorific
- Mark Maynard
- Michigan Progress
- Motor City Liberal
- North Oakland Dems
- Oakland Democratic Politics
- Our Michigan
- Peters for Congress (CD09)
- PhiKapBlog
- Polygon, the Dancing Bear
- Rust Belt Blues
- Third City
- Thunder Down Country
- Trusty Getto
- Unhinged

MI Congressional
District Watch Blogs:
- Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood (CD08)

MI Campaigns:
MI Democratic Orgs:
MI Progressive Orgs:
MI Misc.:
National Alternative Media:
National Blogs:
Powered by: SoapBlox